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Uberpowered and hinterpowered?
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Mordax



Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 1584
Location: Mars

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

If all of them were this strong it wouldnt be cheap
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

*sigh* i'd have thought you knew better mordax.

Balance is more then just making all HARs have an equal share of cheap moves, or making all HARs equally strong...

If you want real balance, HARs are to be internally balanced, no particular move should be overpowered compared to the others, and the HARs should at that point be leveled to an equal point, HARs like jaguar pyros and force have all had many "patches" and now would come close (pyros LK/Force a.RK arent perfect yet :p), thats how all HARs should be, not uber cheap, and it wouldnt even be possible to have every HAR like mantis, mantis simply has too much priority, making others like mantis would make mantis' priority weak.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

maybe he didnt mean make them as strong as mantis in the same way as mantis is strong? i dont think when eh says "make others like mantis" give them his awesome normals, i think he meant give them their own [filtered] that makes them just as scary. not take mantis's [filtered] and put it on the others
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Socrates



Joined: 11 May 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

whoa you can post anonymous now? well that was me, didnt notice i was logged out
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Quote:
maybe he didnt mean make them as strong as mantis in the same way as mantis is strong? i dont think when eh says "make others like mantis" give them his awesome normals, i think he meant give them their own [filtered] that makes them just as scary. not take mantis's [filtered] and put it on the others


that would make sense if only Mantis didnt completely own every HAR in every aspect but power.
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Mordax



Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 1584
Location: Mars

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:17 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

And it wouldnt do if the other HARs were stronger
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Socrates



Joined: 11 May 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

well as an example, with Jag even though Mantis would trounce me with his priority in a normal fight, i could still win with Jags awesome mobility, but now Jag LOST that strength while Mantis still has his
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Mordax



Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 1584
Location: Mars

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

In Tekken Tag Tournament there is a character called Devil

Devil is immensely strong and at first glanse very overpowering, however Devil falls short his array of moves, he only has a few, and so there are much less tactics for him

Although Devil is statisticly VERY overpowered, once you learn any of the other characters well, Devil is left behind and becomes balanced, even underpowered because its harder to keep the element of surprise up, countertactics were found and so Devil is no longer overpowered

In OMF, this is what we now need to do with Mantis, but its gonna be made a lot harder by the lack of moves and huge ammounts of tactics for Mantis, but it can be done, as long as Mantis players are loosing to Jags and Katanas and stuff it can be done

And it has been done, I remember when the game first came out everyone complained for a short time about Chronos' Teleports however people quickly got used to evading them and now no one complains

Gargoyle as well is not overpowered, it just requires very different tactics to defeat than the other HARs, get used to those tactics and you wont be complaining about it anymore

This is how a fighting game, even OMF SHOULD be, the balance changes depending on what tactics are around, and its why instead of whining at DE, you should try to find Countertactics to your problems first, else this is what happens, find a countertactic and everything is fine again
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
maybe he didnt mean make them as strong as mantis in the same way as mantis is strong? i dont think when eh says "make others like mantis" give them his awesome normals, i think he meant give them their own [filtered] that makes them just as scary. not take mantis's [filtered] and put it on the others


that would make sense if only Mantis didnt completely own every HAR in every aspect but power.


Yup, I agree with Tuffy here (:shocked:); Mantis doesn't have any weaknesses. There are no parts about it that don't completely own every other robot. It would make sense to give good abilities to the other HARs, except there's nothing you can give to other HARs without it taking away from Mantis.

Note that the huge list of things above aren't all bad; Mantis should certainly have some of these. It's having them all in the same robot that makes it horribly unbalanced. It needs some weaknesses.

By the way Mordax, I only started playing at 2172. Don't blame me for other people's complaints.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Quote:
In Tekken Tag Tournament there is a character called Devil

Devil is immensely strong and at first glanse very overpowering, however Devil falls short his array of moves, he only has a few, and so there are much less tactics for him

Although Devil is statisticly VERY overpowered, once you learn any of the other characters well, Devil is left behind and becomes balanced, even underpowered because its harder to keep the element of surprise up, countertactics were found and so Devil is no longer overpowered

In OMF, this is what we now need to do with Mantis, but its gonna be made a lot harder by the lack of moves and huge ammounts of tactics for Mantis, but it can be done, as long as Mantis players are loosing to Jags and Katanas and stuff it can be done

And it has been done, I remember when the game first came out everyone complained for a short time about Chronos' Teleports however people quickly got used to evading them and now no one complains

Gargoyle as well is not overpowered, it just requires very different tactics to defeat than the other HARs, get used to those tactics and you wont be complaining about it anymore

This is how a fighting game, even OMF SHOULD be, the balance changes depending on what tactics are around, and its why instead of whining at DE, you should try to find Countertactics to your problems first, else this is what happens, find a countertactic and everything is fine again


I find it strange that you are saying this, when the best players of the game wouldnt agree on half of that. (Player and Saiyaman.)
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Robyrt



Joined: 09 Sep 1999
Posts: 7606
Location: Virginia, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Ironically, Devil still beasts at high-level Tekken Tag tournies - he's used as a second Kazuya. A better example would be MvC2's Doctor Doom, once considered the game's best character but now #8 if that. Why? Because the wavedashing technique, which is available to all characters, eliminates most of what made Doom overpowered. If something like this is found that invalidates Mantis' strengths, the game will be a lot more playable. However, I wouldn't just sit around waiting for that to happen - I'd rather see Mantis fixed instead. Wink
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Mordax



Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 1584
Location: Mars

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Mantis isnt broken

If you had been listening you would know that most of the other HARs are

Mantis is how OMF should be, they should all be as stong as that
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Player



Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 1344
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:05 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Hmm...

Mantis is overpowered, but I'm thinking Gargoyle is worse.

I suppose anyone who plays Mantis and Gargoyle, and feels that he isn't overpowered is likely playing that HAR quite poorly.
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Mordax



Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 1584
Location: Mars

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Mantis isnt Overpowered

The others are Underpowered
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veryorkish



Joined: 23 May 2003
Posts: 3196
Location: Here!....Wait, no! There!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Scared Mantis is going to get a well deserved hit with the nerf bat?

If Jag had to go through constant balance changes why should Mantis be any different?
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