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Uberpowered and hinterpowered?
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Robyrt



Joined: 09 Sep 1999
Posts: 7606
Location: Virginia, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Mordax has a point - Mantis and Pyros are IMHO the only bots which you can pick up for the first time and instantly feel like you're doing something impressive and useful. This is part of what makes any fighting game fun, especially for the casual fans who comprise like 90% of sales. Jag used to be a beast, and then got nerfed down to cookie-cutter level with a couple tricks up his sleeves. I'd rather see the other bots get something they can use to keep the big boys from dominating them than have Mantis become "Jag with spiders".
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Quote:
Mordax has a point - Mantis and Pyros are IMHO the only bots which you can pick up for the first time and instantly feel like you're doing something impressive and useful. This is part of what makes any fighting game fun, especially for the casual fans who comprise like 90% of sales. Jag used to be a beast, and then got nerfed down to cookie-cutter level with a couple tricks up his sleeves. I'd rather see the other bots get something they can use to keep the big boys from dominating them than have Mantis become "Jag with spiders".


Yup, I agree with this too, and it's why Mantis and Pyros are both on the top of my list in the thread about how easy bots are to learn. You can own the intermediate level in a day with both of them and not know what a light move is. It would be nice if the other bots were brought up to this level instead of them down; the problem is there are ~6 bots to bring up to that level. It would seem easier to bring down Mantis than to bring everyone else up to have it balanced, but the game certainly would be more action packed to have all bots as powerful as Mantis.
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mrsiezen



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 1210
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:29 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Quote:
You can own the intermediate level in a day with both of them and not know what a light move is. It would be nice if the other bots were brought up to this level instead of them down; the problem is there are ~6 bots to bring up to that level.


Sure! Remove almost the complete depth in this game!
This way button-mashing would a good tactic...And skill can no longer make much difference. 2 easy to use HAR's is more then enough. Leave something for the more skilled players.

Don't confuse the required skill for a HAR and the power of a HAR.
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veryorkish



Joined: 23 May 2003
Posts: 3196
Location: Here!....Wait, no! There!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:59 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Hey man, it takes skill to spam the same combo over and over again. Just ask Fat Chan or what ever name he last used.
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 4262
Location: Beijing, China

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Maybe Mantis can be made different if some of his fragments were taken away. This way there would be a counter tactic against him, which would add up to luck of hitting him... Ok maybe that was a bad idea.

By the way, being on topic, I want to bring up an example of myself. Ive played Chronos since I got the game, and Force back in LT and Demo, but this doesnt matter. I am not an amasing Chronos player, but I am definately above average. I have studied his every move and link, found interesting fragments, came up with insane combos, and still, a few nights ago I was practicing in the arena, finding only that I am bored of him and his lack of creative tactics posible. I wanted to try playing Gargoyle, so I did. Of course, I know I was playing bots, but only after about an hour in the practice arena of studying moves and links, I kicked master bot [filtered] like I never could in Chronos. My brother came in to watch for a minute, and he was stunned by how effective one can be without studying the bot for many long weeks. He went to his PC and tried it too, so after an hour I visit him, and he does 14 hit combos as if he's on autopilot. How this can be called balanced, I dont know.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

once you know 1 HAR, its easier to learn others (if you know them well enough), also salem played garg plenty, Mordax may have known some of his tactics, AI also isnt a very reliable source to figure your skill out against, since they have completely different counter and attack methods.
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 4262
Location: Beijing, China

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

I take that into account, but my brother plays completely differently. I evade a lot, and attack with surprise, trying to put the oponent in an awkward situation. He makes routine blocks and counters, and then when you expect him to passively ignore your approach he makes a daring run with the longest freestyle combo he can think of at the moment. Both of our tactics arent very good in OMF, but we both ruled with Gargoyle after only touching it for an hour or so.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Quote:
once you know 1 HAR, its easier to learn others (if you know them well enough), also salem played garg plenty, Mordax may have known some of his tactics, AI also isnt a very reliable source to figure your skill out against, since they have completely different counter and attack methods.


Everyone always says this; I know for one that it's not true, and Discomb obviously seconds that. The exact same thing that happened to Discomb happened to me: I spent months on Jaguar, trying to master every link and every poke and every long combo. When I finally got around to trying Force, within a day I was far better than I was with Jag. This was when I was still doing old combos like frk lk rp rgrav rmeteor jflk aflp afrp. I couldn't combo any more than that, had no clue of his attack styles, no clue how to use his supers, no clue how to use it's projectiles or repulsor (and I still don't), no clue how to move properly, no clue how to poke or catch evades, and yet I was far better than I was with jag both against bots and online.

Tuffy, now that you're good with Pyros and Jaguar you should try learning Chronos. See how long it takes you to get good with it.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Actually i'm decent with every HAR, also after some testing, Gargoyle is the HAR in which AI is easiest to defeat by far, where as online i am thoroughly useles with Gargoyle, and quite ok with Mantis, VS AI i am useles with mantis, and get 8 consecutive flawless victory's VS AI.

Chronos, together with Gargoyle are HARs that move and attack least like the other HAR's and are about least played (chronos has been picked up a bit lately though).

Chronos combo's are easy to learn and develop, though difficult to perform (IMHO).

Vuen, when i was still sucky with Pyros, i also put hours of practice into jaguar, the best i could come up with was RP LP j.fRK a.fLK a.LK BD, after i had thoroughly mastered pyros, and hadnt played Jaguar in ages, i found the old style 28hit combo within 15 minutes.

Once you know 1 HAR, learning others DOES go faster, a LOT. Whether you like that or not.
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Socrates



Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 3803
Location: <3

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:42 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

yeah learning new characters definitely gets easier after youre proficent with one, its like that in every game ive played from learning Starcraft races to learning chars in fighting games to solving new puzzles in adventure games. im surprised that anyone would even try to dispute that, i always thought of it as obvious truth.

I played Jag for two months, got good with it. Then after like a day of playing Pyros, i was having an easier time beating some people with pyros than in jag. And it wasnt Jag's fault, this was back when Jag was on top. Then when retail came out I tried Chronos. I got good with Chronos in about 10 minutes. I think Chronos is super simple to play, although you have to be very careful, actually learning him is VERY easy imo
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CloudFFVII



Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 360
Location: U.K.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Well i've had the game a total of 17 days now (including demo) and i can use pyros to beat master AI with EASE, online im virtually useless with it but hey. Gargoyle and warlord are difficult to use imo gargoyle because of getting used to glide and warlord because of weapon switching, of course the Har MASTER tourney isnt probably the best place to try and learn to use them but im stubborn like that. Combos i find are insanely difficult to perform until you do it once, then it becomes easy. I've been trying to perform some of the shorter combos from the OMF mausoleum site and i find after the first 5 moves i can never remember what im meant to do next, once ive cracked it it'l be a lot easier tho (i hope). Neway back to the training arena (pulls drain cover back into place and goes back to pc)
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 4262
Location: Beijing, China

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

You were very good playing today, despite the somewhat laggy server. Of course you didnt whip any long combos out, but you werent that far behind Salem and myself. If this was all done in 17 days I am very impressed, personally.
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FlamingMonkey



Joined: 30 Jul 2002
Posts: 8397

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Quote:
Actually i'm decent with every HAR, also after some testing, Gargoyle is the HAR in which AI is easiest to defeat by far, where as online i am thoroughly useles with Gargoyle, and quite ok with Mantis, VS AI i am useles with mantis, and get 8 consecutive flawless victory's VS AI.

Chronos, together with Gargoyle are HARs that move and attack least like the other HAR's and are about least played (chronos has been picked up a bit lately though).

Chronos combo's are easy to learn and develop, though difficult to perform (IMHO).

Vuen, when i was still sucky with Pyros, i also put hours of practice into jaguar, the best i could come up with was RP LP j.fRK a.fLK a.LK BD, after i had thoroughly mastered pyros, and hadnt played Jaguar in ages, i found the old style 28hit combo within 15 minutes.

Once you know 1 HAR, learning others DOES go faster, a LOT. Whether you like that or not.


Keep in mind that several gravity changes during the LT changed the way we combo, mostly making it easier.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Actually i'm decent with every HAR, also after some testing, Gargoyle is the HAR in which AI is easiest to defeat by far, where as online i am thoroughly useles with Gargoyle, and quite ok with Mantis, VS AI i am useles with mantis, and get 8 consecutive flawless victory's VS AI.

Chronos, together with Gargoyle are HARs that move and attack least like the other HAR's and are about least played (chronos has been picked up a bit lately though).

Chronos combo's are easy to learn and develop, though difficult to perform (IMHO).

Vuen, when i was still sucky with Pyros, i also put hours of practice into jaguar, the best i could come up with was RP LP j.fRK a.fLK a.LK BD, after i had thoroughly mastered pyros, and hadnt played Jaguar in ages, i found the old style 28hit combo within 15 minutes.

Once you know 1 HAR, learning others DOES go faster, a LOT. Whether you like that or not.


Keep in mind that several gravity changes during the LT changed the way we combo, mostly making it easier.


I joined 1 build before that change (had it for 3 days, before it changed), i never noticed much difference.
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Mordax



Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 1584
Location: Mars

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Uberpowered and hinterpowered? Reply with quote

Note that Cloudeh is saying Garg and Warlord were hard

Did it ever occur to anyone that different HARs may be easy or difficult for different people?

Isnt that how the game is meant to be?
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