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Mantis
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Endy



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 4079
Location: Lost within my own thoughts.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:52 pm    Post subject: Mantis Reply with quote

Mantis IS overpowered. I've conclusively stated the arguments approximatley 99 times previously. Pardon me if I'm a bit sick of typing the SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

For the record:

Mantis is overpowered because of the following.

- Mantis has MANY attacks wich push him into the target. Normally when a HAR has an attack which pushes him into the target, it is checked by a BLOCK ANIMATION.

NONE of mantises "push" attacks have a block animation, thusly mantis can spam the opponent in such a way that THEY CANNOT RETALIATE (since the mantis can push himself into the opponent and NEVER be vulnerable)


- Mantis has RP which is one of the strongest priority attacks in the game it beats MANY attacks which it shouldn't.


- Mantis can punish any evade from any position in a combo. Evading vs mantis is suicide no matter how skilled you are.


- Mantis can create massive combos. One thing that pisses me off is his super slide attack (12 hit supermove) bounces not ONCE... BUT TWO [filtered] TIMES allowing him to continue comboing after landing his strongest attack.

Thats like a jaguar comboing after landing berserker dash. Think about that guys.



- Mantises combos can unfairly "fragment" both on the ground and in the air causing the combo meter to reset in damage and effectively allows mantis to dance around combo scaling taking out massive chunks of health from the opponent in the middle of a combo.

- Mantises supermoves are among the MOST USEFUL and LEAST PUNISHABLE in the WHOLE GAME and they are ALL ON ONE SINGLE HAR....



Theres more... much more.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

even though i dont fully agree about how useful the supers are, i do agree that the rest is insane, his RP goes beyond nearly anything and his RK slide simply has one of the games highest prioritys, while mantis is so small that only low attacks would hit.
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Endy



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Oh yeah the slide.... DE!!!!!


INCREASE THE COOLDOWN ON THAT ATTACK 10x. IT is a perfect eaxample of the mantis simply having way too much area controll for a melee focused HAR.

It's too spammable, it's too hard to stop and it has too much priority. EITHER NERF THE MOVE ITSELF... OR ADD AN APPROPRIATE COOLDOWN FOR SUCH A POWERFUL MOVE!!!
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Quote:
- Mantises combos can unfairly "fragment" both on the ground and in the air causing the combo meter to reset in damage and effectively allows mantis to dance around combo scaling taking out massive chunks of health from the opponent in the middle of a combo.


Actually, Mantis doesn't have any mid-air fragments; it is a bug to reset while the opponent is in mid-air, and there are no such bugs right now. The only real bugged fragment on ground is the double flp.

All bots can reset the combo meter, though some better than others. Mantis is not the only one who can reset the combo meter on ground (though I do agree it can do so much better than other robots).

As for the rest, I agree with you, and here's my take on it (as posted in the uberpowered/hinterpowered thread):

I think the biggest imbalance about Mantis is that all his heavies make the opponent hang in mid air, have insane priority, and can be chained randomly and all link.

What I mean by 'hang in mid air' is, say you're Force, and try doing a standard frk lk lp combo. If the enemy jumps right before the frk, after the lk he drops to the ground. End of combo. Try the same thing with Jag: lk rp rk lp. If the opponent jumps right before the lk, it slams him to the ground and the rp misses. End of combo. It's basically the same thing for all robots except Mantis. Regardless of whether the opponent is in the air or not, he can just churn away the combo seamlessly and the opponent never drops to the ground.

They also have insane priority. This issue has been discussed at length.

They also link to anything. You can basically press all of mantis' heavies randomly, and everything either links and continues the combo, or resets the combo ('ground fragment'). This means that a Mantis player can use its highly varied heavies in any combination and still churn out all his heavies together. For example, if it needs high priority, in start with rp. If it needs to punish a counter, it can start with lp. If it needs to chew stun, it can start with rk. If it needs to break a turtle, it can start with lk. Either way you swing it, it can link all its heavies together with nearly no change to escape.

Other robots don't have this variety. Force is stuck with frk lk lp/rp or flp lp. If you want to start with the counter-punishing lk or the high-priority rp, you simply don't get to throw in those extra moves you miss out on. Too bad for you. Same thing with Jaguar; if you start a combo with rp, you just don't get to use lk.

It's side punches are also extremely unfair. They have a delayed hit independant from the move, which means you can't interrupt a side punch; even if you start a combo on a Mantis, if he side punched earlier it gets interrupted because the little flea hits you. Worse, the Mantis can combo his side punches, and combined with its 'hang in mid air' heavies you take tons of damage from a side punch. Plus they do heavy damage. I mean, I can understand variety, but it's the only robot that has either of these imbalances in its side punches, and having them both is ridiculous.

The spider infestation super is also absurd, and since this is a Mantis-specific thread I may as well rant on it. Spider infestation is absurd. Firstly, the spiders are uncounterable. What I mean is that there are multiple spiders; if you counter one, the others hit you (unless you're Chronos, in which case the Mantis blocks the counter and punishes the crap out of you). It's not fair that a move should prevent itself from being countered like that. Also, even if you counter the initial bomb, it still explodes dropping spiders everywhere. Countering it is useless.

Secondly, the spiders are unavoidable. You can't block them, so you have to leave. They walk much faster than the backward walking speed of all robots, so if they land in front of you you actually have to turn around first. You can't roll away or jump away because it chews up your entire stun bar leaving you completely vulnerable to a stun combo. You can't run away because the mantis can simply shoot you down (and then the spiders get you). Worst of all, most of the time the spider bomb with its massive range lands behind you, so you have no choice but to run towards the Mantis. Either way you look at it, whenever a Mantis shoots an infestation bomb you have absolutely no choice but to take damage. You're best to run into them so that the Mantis can't combo you.
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Robyrt



Joined: 09 Sep 1999
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Mantis sidepunch is uncannily like Aggression from the Lord of the Rings TCG. Let's enumerate:

Mantis sidepunch: Trades with anything, starts combos, fast and safe
Aggression: Draws 4 cards, helps card combos, cheap and safe

Both are examples of design concepts that simply do too many things at once. Side attacks are supposed to be fast and safe, that's the point. Some generic attacks start combos - like Force's counter - and Mantis is supposed to have a lot of flexibility in combos. Sounds good. A delayed side attack is a cool idea, and has loads of priority, and Mantis is supposed to have a lot of priority. Sounds good. Similarly, in LOTR, Dwarves have always been good at drawing cards, pumping their own combos, and playing cards on the cheap.

The problem is not that any of the concepts are wrong. The problem is that there's a single move that covers all your bases. Mantis sidepunch performs all Mantis' goals perfectly, without even having to worry about alternate solutions. So does Aggression for the LOTR Dwarves.

Aggression was recently banned. What does that say about Mantis sidepunch?
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FireFly



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

In my opinion, Mantis is overpowered. When the other hars were modified, Mantis wasn't, so many of his moves still link to combos
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

For the sidepunches, it's a neat idea to have a delayed sidepunch, and it's a neat idea to have a sidepunch that combos. What I just don't get is why Mantis has both. All other bots' sidepunches are plain and simple knockdown (and Garg's does half of a light move's damage). Give one of these to another robot (besides Warlord who has sidegrabs); I'd be perfectly fine with Mantis having delayed sidepunches OR comboable sidepunches. Just not both, when all other robots have nil.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Quote:
Mantis sidepunch is uncannily like Aggression from the Lord of the Rings TCG. Let's enumerate:

Mantis sidepunch: Trades with anything, starts combos, fast and safe
Aggression: Draws 4 cards, helps card combos, cheap and safe

Both are examples of design concepts that simply do too many things at once. Side attacks are supposed to be fast and safe, that's the point. Some generic attacks start combos - like Force's counter - and Mantis is supposed to have a lot of flexibility in combos. Sounds good. A delayed side attack is a cool idea, and has loads of priority, and Mantis is supposed to have a lot of priority. Sounds good. Similarly, in LOTR, Dwarves have always been good at drawing cards, pumping their own combos, and playing cards on the cheap.

The problem is not that any of the concepts are wrong. The problem is that there's a single move that covers all your bases. Mantis sidepunch performs all Mantis' goals perfectly, without even having to worry about alternate solutions. So does Aggression for the LOTR Dwarves.

Aggression was recently banned. What does that say about Mantis sidepunch?


nice rants but you cant honestly be serious that Mantis was meant to be fast versatile easy comboing, easy evade catching, not have any cooldown and have the best ranges in the game?

if so, yes the problem is that the concepts are wrong, the only thing Mantis doesnt have better then all HARs is his damage, which is easily helped by fragments, unevadable combos, and not ever having to be punishable or attackable.
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mrsiezen



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:33 am    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Wise words guys, I just agree with it, if that means anything...
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Robyrt



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Hehe, notice that I didn't say Mantis was supposed to outrange the other HARs, be faster and safer than the other HARs, etc. The way it is, Mantis is overpowered - but just saying "mantis is teh b0rk3n!" won't do much, so why not go into more detail on the specific things he does that are leagues ahead of anyone else.

Other things that follow the example of "doing too many things at once" are RK slide (mad range, near-infinite priority, very safe) and LK (breaks turtlers, safe, starts the crazy fragment combos for free).
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IcoN



Joined: 05 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Hehe. Another Mantis 'omg mantiz iz chep DE plz fix!!1!'

Hehe.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Quote:
Other things that follow the example of "doing too many things at once" are RK slide (mad range, near-infinite priority, very safe) and LK (breaks turtlers, safe, starts the crazy fragment combos for free).


Very true. LK is the only move in the game besides throws that can reset the combo meter on front without being counterable; this makes Mantis the only bot who can attempt resets on front and back. The slide is also completely unpunishable and ridiculously fast; they seem to get the same blocklock warmup elimination as counters, because when you pause spamming a Mantis they can always throw in a perfectly safe slide.
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Mordax



Joined: 19 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Endy have you ever used Mantis AT ALL?

His super moves are useless
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Sidious



Joined: 06 Jul 2003
Posts: 188

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:50 am    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

*laughs*
No they aren't....I've been creamed by people using those super moves.
And I mean creamed-normally I can give people a run for their money.
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Mordax



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Spiders: Can be countered by running, they are too slow to catch you

Flies: Lower range version of concussion cannon, only affects people in the air or RIGHT in front

Slide: High chance it wont go off at all, have to know exactly when to use it to get it to work

No where near what the other HARs have
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