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Mantis
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Mordax



Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 1584
Location: Mars

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:10 am    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Im not complaining, im pointing out that Mantis has its disadvantages too

Spiders:

Are we still stuck in 2D here Vuen?

If someone throws spiders behind you, run left or right

In order to chase someone who is being chased by spiders, mantis will spend a lot of the time in the spider crowd and probably wont reach the target by the time the spiders go off, this is a LOT harder than it seems

As for the initial bomb, its a lot harder to hit someone with that than it is to hit someone with any other ranged super, except possibly Warlord's Grenades

Slide:

Well ive been knocked out of it before, try Katanas spins, Gargs glides, Any ranged projectile, Force's anything, Chronos super crystals, the list goes on, at least BD is faster

You might be ducking, but you will find that if the enemy does a lot of attacks the super will end half way

Oh yeh, tons of forwards range most of which is JUST a slide with no combo on it

Other supers go off when they hit, a few have problems but not even BD has the total that this does, There are I have counted 4 times during the attack when this move can end:

1: Not going off at all
2: Just after Mantis moves into the air
3: Half way through
4: Just before the last hit

You can only combo out of it if it works fully or sometimes in sceinario 3

The bounce only happens on some surfaces

No matter how many enemies you pick up the full combo can only affect 1, most of the time both will drop out

Flies:

You only completely invulnerable if the attack hits and your in 1v1, in Free For All you are very much vulnerable while using this attack, infact in free for all this attack is about as useful as Katana's wall kick in Pharo's Fire

Even in 1v1, you can only catch the opponent in this if he is either in range or in the air, and while this makes it an effective anti-garg attack, for anything else its just a CC with less range

Yeh, your invincible in 1v1 while its hitting, this counts for just about any other super in the game though, so no advantages there, as for comboing out of it, there are 3 attacks which you can use afterwards, the slides, only one of those links to other attacks and its a super so you need more energy

And no, you cant kick under it, you can however:

1) Evade
2) Counter
3) Duck
4) Walk Backwards
5) Block

Thats right, you block flies you can just sit there and pick your moment to counter and dish the damage back

I rest my case
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eengoedemorgen



Joined: 30 Aug 2002
Posts: 5322
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Flies have the irritating habbit of turning around very quickly, in that matter, a homing CC is as usefull as pennies are when you're trying to kill an elephant..

Flies have incredible homing abilities and can, if trown behind you, give you very much trouble cause

1) Evading wouldn't work, it'll chase you after all
2) Countering something you can't see? And BTW, only if you're Chronos that counter will dish some damage to your opponent, most counters would just get you into trouble here
3) Would ducking help here? I doubt it, then you're block is gone, so you're a sitting duck for a slide..
4) Walk backwards, yeah right, as if I would walk towards a bullet speeding for my head.
5) Blocking won't work, cause for that you'll have to turn around, asking for a combo in yer back (complete with fragments and such)

The problems with the slides are that you virtually can't see them comming, and if you do, you're prolly stuck in the cooldown of an attack.

Another thing about Mantis I think is that is way to easy to get behind someone while in a 1vs1, and when Mantis is behind you, there's little what you can do, evades will be punished by slides, standing still will be punished by (surprise!) a combo, running away you'll prolly eat a projectile... jumping up and evading won't help you, etc etc.

I'm done ranting for now

EGM - out
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TamCoan



Joined: 02 May 2002
Posts: 913

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:11 am    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Super-spiders is an OK super. Novice players get owned by it. Experienced players aren't even fazed by it. All in all, it's a good defensive super. Nothing more, nothing less.

Super-Slide is the worst out of the three. The fact that it has a 50/50 chance of actually working is rather annoying. Plus players have stated that they can get out of it by ducking during the super. (I can't comment on that as I haven't tested it. I have had many people simple "fall out" of the super and state it is because they ducked.) Too much of a chance to use this.

Super-Flies is the best. The change to make it unevadable makes it so. So-so damage and tough to perfectly line-up outside of a combo, it's other attributes make up for it. Biggest problem is if you miss with it. You're stuck standing there while you fire away. While many state you can't hit the mantis, use a projectile or your own super to counter.

With the exception of super-spiders, which I see as a viable defensive super, I usually only use the other two in combos. Flies can be good outside a combo if your opponent is scared or a novice.
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mrsiezen



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 1210
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:15 am    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

The only annoing thing about Mantis' supers is that you can't evade after the Super Slide. This isn't logical, and you can easily do a combo after it, because the victim seems to be made of rubber after the SS, bouncing sky-high after the last hit...
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Mordax



Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 1584
Location: Mars

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

EGM we are talking about supers

And no matter how annoying you find the normal flies I must point out that you have to charge them in your hand for them to be effective at all, there are limits on them, and effective ones too, why would I loose a hand so I can get a 2-4 hit combo that does little damage? surely there are better things I could be doing with it
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

I'v also been playing mantis and,

His super slide and super fly swarm are atleast the best supers in combos, also his fly swarm is good aslong as the majority of enemys is in front of you, since the range is so large, it cant really be punished, and if the opponent is dumb enough to block it his cooldown will be way longer then yours, and you can pull an LK without him abled to do anything about it.

I must say in regular mellee, especially FFA, superslide is pretty useless, you would need another attack to align correctly, for it to be reliable, (LK slide for example) the downside is that they can evade at this point (since there arent any reliable alignment attacks that only use 1 hit). However, in combos theres really no super in the game thats better then this one (allignment attacks are prefered, not required).

Super spider bomb is an awesome attack, once you learn the range, you can completely controll your opponent (especially in arena's like blast furnace, neo vegas, pharaos fire), not only is it awesome for control purposes, also its awesome for defensive purposes (use it on any nearby wall, its RARE when there is none).
Not only that, its possibly the best super for usage on crowds, you dont only have a nearly secure hit, you can also combo from it (which means a lot, since Mantis is one of the supreme combo HARs).

Overal i dont think you can say mantis supers are bad, i personally consider them far better then those of Pyros, some(!) of Chronos', some of Force and some of Gargoyle's.

Just my 2 cents.
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veryorkish



Joined: 23 May 2003
Posts: 3196
Location: Here!....Wait, no! There!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Chronos' super tac would be as good as super fly except the angle is higher so they have to be in the air (frozen or other wise) for it to work but since the super flys are homing they hit lower and higher...
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 4262
Location: Beijing, China

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

That, and Super Teleport is better then Super Slide IMHO. It can link to a a.fRP freeze crystal throw, Super TAC > Super Teleport lets you link to the right red crystal through. It links anytime your oponent is vulnerable and you are on the ground, and furthermore, RP > Super Teleport eats a lot of stun if the oponent evades, which he is likely to do. Also, it would never fail to connect in this case, and even pyros RP firespin wouldnt punish it. Lets not forget it has the longest range of all non projectile supers Smile
Extremely useful in combos, always connects if you arent completely stupid in it's placing, 70 something damage, 11 hits, glide above safely as you perform it, if something is bugged your oponent is still hit on the ground, and of he blocks you can link it to a.LK > a.LP and start a very long combo. What more can you want? (except shorter charge time)
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

i meant the ground freeze being horrid, i didnt say "SOME" without any reason.
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veryorkish



Joined: 23 May 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Yeah it may suck but at least its comboable...
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Meowbeast



Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 736

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Mantis Scares Me.
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mrsiezen



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 1210
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

uhm...And you scare me
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

lol, but TUF, the ground freeze super is Chronoses only crowd control move! Very often in FFA I just jump into a busy crowd and hope I dont get hit by Pyros or Warlord. Usually get 3-4 people smashed.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Quote:
lol, but TUF, the ground freeze super is Chronoses only crowd control move! Very often in FFA I just jump into a busy crowd and hope I dont get hit by Pyros or Warlord. Usually get 3-4 people smashed.


and in team mode its gets your own mates frozen...
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 4262
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:30 am    Post subject: Re: Mantis Reply with quote

Yar! I see what you mean now. Sometimes when I play with a force AI on my team I just want to rip his meteor face out. Every single one of his specials and supers, which he likes to spam a lot, gets me (the teammate) killed, or ruins a nice combo or something. I'm doing a nice stun combo and he comes over and does LP meteor! ARGH! Mad
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