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Warlord
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Meowbeast



Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 736

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

Mortars can be really useful. lp mortar is useful because you don't have to put the targeting crosshair thingy all the way over someone, and because you can bounce it off of things.
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vicioso



Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 414

PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

Quote:
from Robyrt

does this mean you guys still care about this game? or are you just talking about it? sorry, got a bit off-topic there, i'm gonna add my opinion now.

I think warlord being heavy, strong, and attack fast is great because it eliminates those size ability stereotypes. this is basically the idea: any abiltiies a character might have shouldn't be compromised just because of their physical appearance. I'm so sick of those "big and strong! ...but slow" and "fast! ...but small and weak" stereotypes. Remember Thorn from OMF2097? that HAR looked like it'd be the slowest thing in the entire game, but it was actually pretty fast. Not only is this great because you're dealing with a new image for a character, it's great because you come to notice that your character doesn't have limitations, and having such a character makes you feel very powerful, especially at lower levels of play, so you'll want to keep playing the game ("[filtered]. he's big, strong, AND fast?!?! what stops this guy?! hes PERFECT for me!" "[filtered] this char can fight so well without even having to be in your face and if you do get in his face, he can do THAT to knock them back out and play keep away again! I love him!"). that's why we play these games, because we like using these great powers, we're limited in real life so [filtered] should you play a VIDEO GAME where you're limited?

also, a very important part of this whole thing, this ensures that top level play isn't destroyed because it's just a boring, more advanced realization of low level play. this gives new possibilities for top level play. Magneto from MvC2 is a really good example of this. Magneto is a char who has very good melee moves. in addition to that, he has a very fast dash, and he can air dash in all 8 directions (only 2 on ground). you'll probably find some Magneto jumping around trying to combo you with his fantastic melee moves, hyper grabbing, and a bit of ER disruptor at low level play. at high level play, they'll realize the deadly combination ofh is great melee attacks and the speed of his dashes and combine that, making top level Magneto seem like a completely different character, a vicious rushdown maniac, and it's things like this that make games worth exploring and that makes top play unpredictable. i don't even think Magneto was meant to be played like this, but he is, and that's cuz he wasn't a limited POS character. think of what he'd be like if he just had great melee moves. he'd just be another character Cable disables. that's why I always say "don't nerf, BUFF"

Quote:
This kind of attacking FORCES the defender to counter him (difficult) or interrupt him (potentially suicidal).

this quote is [filtered] hilarious. ALL hars do this, why should warlord be any different? so he can be purposefully underpowered? most underpowered characters are underpowered because at a certain level of play they find they dont have the right abilities that makes them keep up with all the other characters. for instance, if there were a character that killed you in ONE blow but was VERY VERY VERY slow, he'd be EXTREMELY ineffecient at top level play because the faster chars will rape him.. your reasons for saying he's ovepowered don't sound effecient enough to nerf, just to buff everything else.

btw, you do realize that when you say strongest and fastest moves that those are two separate types of attacks and not one in the same? and while he may be the strongest in the game, only the fast weaker attacks combo well? LP with a warmup time LOL.. LP is to make up for the fact that he can't defend all sides of himself, not to attack someone offensively.. so giving LP a warmup time would be ridiculous, especially since you can punish him for doing LP! that'd be like giving shoryuken a warmup time, it'd lose all of its value as an attack
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

Only his fast attacks combo well? well most of your post was true, but thats just hilarious :thumbsup:
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vicioso



Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 414

PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

well, what warlord attacks combo well? I know LP is useless for combos and I think LK is too but i'm not sure about RP and RK
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

He means compared to the other hars Tuffy. Warlord has a hard time getting a 15 hit combo while all other hars can easily do above 25 (up to 60 in some cases), and his combos are terribly easy to evade. You can only use one out of lk, rk, ark, and right mace smash in any given combo, so no, his heavies don't link well. Besides I wouldn't even count the ground smashes as heavies because they don't do as much damage as the real heavies, meaning he only realistically has 5 heavy moves. You're very lucky if you get to use 2 or 3 of those in one combo (especially if the opponent evades).

I take it back, it's not relative to the other HARs. He just sucks at linking heavies. Oh the hilarity! :sweat2:


As for LP, a warmup time would make it utterly useless. The problem I find with LP is that it has a huge 'hit' length, as in it has about a full second that it'l hit the enemy. For example, LP outprioritizes Chronos lteleport (front). That's all nice and good, but how hard is it to time it properly? Zero. Just press it basically any time, and the enemy will run right into it.

It'd probably be more balanced if you cut out some of the hit length; not add warmup or cooldown, but cut out some of the time it hits. This would make the move shorter overall, meaning you could spam it faster :shocked:, but it would actually introduce some timing into outprioritizing moves.
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Socrates



Joined: 11 May 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

Quote:
LP is to make up for the fact that he can't defend all sides of himself, not to attack someone offensively.. so giving LP a warmup time would be ridiculous, especially since you can punish him for doing LP! that'd be like giving shoryuken a warmup time, it'd lose all of its value as an attack


[filtered] thats a good point
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

Vuen, linking the other heavys isnt really hard, however compared to other HARs, warlords combos lack quite a bit.

However, its utter [filtered] that his combos are easy to evade, Warlords combos (when well performed) Are extremely difficult to evade from.
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vicioso



Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 414

PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

yea, agreed. its [filtered] hard to evade warlord combos when you're stunned
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

Quote:
yea, agreed. its [filtered] hard to evade warlord combos when you're stunned


You don't need to be stunned if you're facing a skilled walrlord.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

I disagree entirely. It's unbelievably harder to evade from Mantis, Katana, Gargoyle and Chronos, and still harder to evade from Pyros or Force and Jaguar. I'd go so far as to say Warlord combos are easiest to evade.

I never said it's hard to link in Warlord heavies. The point is that light moves are the backbone of the combo instead of the heavies like other bots. Warlord realistically has only 5 heavies to begin with compared to Force's 9 and everyone else's 8. His heavies just don't link to eachother well; he's the only bot that doesn't have a heavy move progression, and you have to add in light moves and evade gaps in air juggles to make the combo more reliable.

Look, here's a simple heavy move progression for every other bot:

Pyros: rk rp lk ark arp alp
Jaguar: arp lk rp rk lp
Force: ark frk lk jlk lp
Gargoyle: alp lk rk lp rp
Chronos: ark jlk alp lp rk lk rp
Katana: lk rp rk alp arp ark
Mantis: lp rk rp lk ark alk
Warlord: ???

It just doesn't exist man. The only thing you can hope to do is lk rp jrp alp alk, but lk doesn't count as a heavy because it does just over 1/3 heavy damage (I'm not even kidding, it's less than warlord's light moves), and the juggle part is extremely unreliable (1/5 for no reason if you're lucky) and easy as pie to evade.

It just doesn't exist man.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

Note: I'm not saying it's a bad thing that Warlord doesn't have this, or that it's in any way imbalanced. I play Warlord and I like him the way he is. That's what makes him unique Smile.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

a.RK j.RP a.LP a.fLP a.fRP a.fRK

or..

a.RK j.RP a.LP a.LK a.fRK

its reliable and the first one is extremely difficult to evade from. Esspecially the combos meow pulls using Warlord are hardly evadable and VERY damaging.

Let alone you only need to do a.LK RP LP for a massive amount of damage, or fragment for more :smirk:
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

ark doesn't count; it does less than half his heavy moves.

That means the longest juggle you have there is all of 3 consecutive heavies; worst of all, the only way those 3 heavies end up at the start of the combo is if you end the combo.

Do you see what I mean now? In the combos you yourself just posted, you have a maximum of 3 consecutive heavies to be used in a combo. This compared to the 5-7 consecutive heavy starters of every other bot.

You have to integrate light moves in there. You don't have a choice. Warlord simply does not have a heavy move progression.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

Quote:
ark doesn't count; it does less than half his heavy moves.

That means the longest juggle you have there is all of 3 consecutive heavies; worst of all, the only way those 3 heavies end up at the start of the combo is if you end the combo.

Do you see what I mean now? In the combos you yourself just posted, you have a maximum of 3 consecutive heavies to be used in a combo. This compared to the 5-7 consecutive heavy starters of every other bot.

You have to integrate light moves in there. You don't have a choice. Warlord simply does not have a heavy move progression.


More research required there vuen, a.RK does full heavy damage.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Warlord Reply with quote

LOL, I was IN THE TRAINING ROOM with warlord when I wrote that post. The very first thing I did when you mentioned ark was I alt tabbed and checked ark. Want the real initial gracy damage readouts?

flp: 24
lk: 28
ark: 35
rp: 62
arp: 62

Tada, just barely over half. I thought it was less than half when I measured but apparently not.
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