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The Fragment Issue
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

Quote:
I think the main problem here is...

Some of the people defending the fragment don't truely understand how powerful it can be, because they haven't explored fragmentation to the fullest extent.

Personally, I started exploring fragmentation before the Limited Test came out. I remember Fire and I would try to come up with rediculous combos. As a courtest to the opponent, I never use them, because once started, they are impossible to stop.


Quote:
Yes that combo can not be blocked, the fRP knocks him of his feet (unblockable), the RP picks him back up into the second fragment, since RP is the first attack in that combo, LP wont be evadable, RK cant be evaded thanks to its range, fRK is the same, and the a.fRP a.fLP both have such in air range that theyre also as good as unevadable.


Could you please get me a replay of this? If the frp knocks him off his feet, then as long as the rp hits it links no matter what. It's not possible to fragment on an airborn opponent; this means it's only possible to fragment once, and there has to be some gap between the hits where the enemy is standing idle on ground with the ability to move, block, counter with cancelled warmup, evade, and start any move. We seriously need to test this out. I'm sure it's at least blockable.

*a trip to the practice room later* The frp does not knock the opponent off his feet. I just tested Player's fragment:

lp frk alk rk frp ! rp lp rk frk afrp aflp

The opponent doesn't hit the air until the rp. If you stop at the frp, the opponent doesn't even fall over at all, and simply recovers standing. The rp of course sends the opponent up, as it's supposed to, but between the frp and the rp, there's a gap where the opponent is standing idle on ground ready to do stuff. I'm sure you can escape it.

[edit]By the way, that fragment does more damage if you do
lp rk frk alk frp ! rp lp rk frk afrp aflp
instead. Wink

Quote:
I'm hearing arguements about instant kill hazards. In order to be placed into one of these hazards, your opponent is going to need to use a move that can push you backwards.

Here are some examples:
Jag's Leap, Mantis' RK Slide, Katana's throw...

It's often hard to make these moves the first move of your combo.


Why do they need to be the first move in your combo? You can start a combo with any move, and just link to them.

Try this. Say you're Force; instead of
ark frk lk flk ! lp etc, a 300 some damage fragment combo
you can just do
ark frk lk throw

Completely unevadable once the ark hits (all ground moves and you can't evade after a throw), and obviously a lot more deadly than a fragment because you're guaranteed to kill the opponent, since they land in the water.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

because if its not the first attack in the combo, they'de be abled to evade on most occasions.
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Socrates



Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 3803
Location: <3

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

Quote:

There are lots of fighting games who have instant kill combos/attacks. Do you think all of these games are imbalanced?


if the game is dominated by them then the game isnt really taken seriously, in most well made games they play a small part because of the conditions needed to make them possible, and certain setups that need to be done first, some which are predictable. so id say its only a real problem if they dominate the game. and as for robyrt's MvC2 example, its slightly misleading for people who havent played it because no MvC2 guaranteed kill will ever be as bad because you get 3 characters
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

Quote:
because if its not the first attack in the combo, they'de be abled to evade on most occasions.


Tuffy I just explained a situation where they can't evade. All robots can link their ground heavies into a throw, which is completely unevadable and far better than a fragment when facing a hazard.

Quote:
if the game is dominated by them then the game isnt really taken seriously, in most well made games they play a small part because of the conditions needed to make them possible, and certain setups that need to be done first, some which are predictable. so id say its only a real problem if they dominate the game. and as for robyrt's MvC2 example, its slightly misleading for people who havent played it because no MvC2 guaranteed kill will ever be as bad because you get 3 characters


Only 3? In BG, you get as many characters as it takes for the win (usually 10). As FlamingMonkey said, an instant kill combo is still only one round.
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Socrates



Joined: 11 May 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

Quote:

Only 3? In BG, you get as many characters as it takes for the win (usually 10). As FlamingMonkey said, an instant kill combo is still only one round.


i didnt mention OMF, i didnt say OMF was broken by these combos, so while thats a good point it didnt have much to do wiht what i was trying to say. to clarify im just saying you shouldnt really defend touches of death uncondtionally, there ARE games that are considered ruined by them when theyre just too practical. so if soemone feels theyre too practical on OMF, then its definitely a valid complaint. When a round ends because of a first hit, it SEVERELY limits tactics (once again I'm not necesarilly saying this is the case with OMF, my complaints with OMF are stun, counters, and combo evading, all of which i think contribute to combo problems rather than faulty combos)
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

1 combo already deciding a round is indeed an issue, it does by no means increases the amount of tactics, as the combo is practically unevadable and unblockable or whatsoever.

I'v played player and i know i tried every possible thing, i tried to not get hit by the RP, i tried evading in every way, regardles, i couldnt do a thing. I am pretty sure that atleast online, in 1 on 1 you can have a secure kill through connecting 1 attack, anything that good severly limits usable tactics.
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Player



Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 1344
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

I've never seen anyone escape.

Me and Xar used to try to find ways out of it, but we failed miserably.
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raptor
Ancient One


Joined: 02 Sep 1999
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Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

Quote:
To recap...
In my opinion, a series of moves, that in succession kill an opponent, without giving the said opponent the ability to escape is imbalanced. -player


iirc what robyrt said that wold make 8 or 9 of the 10 HAR's from OMF2097 unbalanced.
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Anonymous
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

even checkers and chess have series of moves that in succession kill the opponent with no chance to escape =O
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

Quote:
I've never seen anyone escape.

Me and Xar used to try to find ways out of it, but we failed miserably.


How recently have you tried? There have been quite a few changes in recent patches that fix a lot of fragment problems (such as fixing mid-air fragmenting bugs). We should try it sometime to see if it's first blockable, then escapable.
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Robyrt



Joined: 09 Sep 1999
Posts: 7606
Location: Virginia, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

Quote:
I actually disagree with the whole fragmenting idea.

Fragments from the front are totally cool, they just add a little more depth to the game.

Combos from the back are rather rediculous. [example of Mantis 100% back fragment]

To recap...
In my opinion, a series of moves, that in succession kill an opponent, without giving the said opponent the ability to escape is imbalanced.


First, of COURSE we're talking about 1v1 high-level play, because that's the only situation where you can tell if something is due to the robot instead of the people and positioning involved.

Second, not all 100% combos break a game. Everyone but Flail in OMF 2097 can dish out unescapeable instant death combos, but that doesn't make the game imbalanced. Why? Because it's available to everyone, and except for special cases like Garg, it's difficult enough to set up that a good player can defend against it reasonably well.

Thus, the problem with BG is not that Mantis has instant kill combos, it's that he can set up said combos with ease the rest of the bots don't even come close to.
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 4262
Location: Beijing, China

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

I personally am with Vuen on the the whole issue, but I think Player made a good point that was ignored. He said that fragments from the front are ok, but side/back fragments get you killed instantly. Anybody get what I am aiming at?
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
I've never seen anyone escape.

Me and Xar used to try to find ways out of it, but we failed miserably.


How recently have you tried? There have been quite a few changes in recent patches that fix a lot of fragment problems (such as fixing mid-air fragmenting bugs). We should try it sometime to see if it's first blockable, then escapable.


They've tried plenty and mantis etc havent been changed much in recent builds.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

Quote:
I personally am with Vuen on the the whole issue, but I think Player made a good point that was ignored. He said that fragments from the front are ok, but side/back fragments get you killed instantly. Anybody get what I am aiming at?


Not really. In the fastest fragment I've seen so far, that being Jaguar's arp lk rp rk frk ! lp, you can side evade out of the way fairly easily on back. I've tested it out online. This is with ping ~120 however, so I don't know if that has something to do with it, but still, most fragments should be dead easy to escape on back. You almost seem to get a small period of invulnerability the same way you do with air evades for example (like how you can air evade through Force's super meteor without getting hit).

Dodging is also not the only way to escape. In carelessly long fragments you can probably sidejump out of the way, and turn and break into your own combo on the spot. A lot of high moves also don't hit high, so you can probably duck, wait for the miss, and then escape. If it's on your sides, you can turn into it to block. If it hits low enough you can probably jump or backflip out of the way. There are lots of ways to escape fragments on back/sides.

Besides, even if you can't escape, why is it such a big problem? As someone said, in 2097 almost all the bots have instant-kill unescapable combos, and it doesn't break the game.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: The Fragment Issue Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
I personally am with Vuen on the the whole issue, but I think Player made a good point that was ignored. He said that fragments from the front are ok, but side/back fragments get you killed instantly. Anybody get what I am aiming at?


Not really. In the fastest fragment I've seen so far, that being Jaguar's arp lk rp rk frk ! lp, you can side evade out of the way fairly easily on back. I've tested it out online. This is with ping ~120 however, so I don't know if that has something to do with it, but still, most fragments should be dead easy to escape on back. You almost seem to get a small period of invulnerability the same way you do with air evades for example (like how you can air evade through Force's super meteor without getting hit).

Dodging is also not the only way to escape. In carelessly long fragments you can probably sidejump out of the way, and turn and break into your own combo on the spot. A lot of high moves also don't hit high, so you can probably duck, wait for the miss, and then escape. If it's on your sides, you can turn into it to block. If it hits low enough you can probably jump or backflip out of the way. There are lots of ways to escape fragments on back/sides.

Besides, even if you can't escape, why is it such a big problem? As someone said, in 2097 almost all the bots have instant-kill unescapable combos, and it doesn't break the game.


Because in 2097 they arent easy to get, whereas a mantis a.LK for example, IS easy to get. (which was said by mostly the same people)

Also the fact that you can evade out and what not is mostly a lag PROBLEM. There are a few people that just keep countering me during my ground jaguar/mantis UNFRAGMENTED combos, this is an effect of lag similar to the evades possible during fRK LP, which is fast, granted, but only has a tiny range (LP), which also explains why they can evade (unless you tested it with force/warlord, which, iirc have slowest ground evades)
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