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New Force Guide
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:46 pm    Post subject: New Force Guide Reply with quote

Hey all. I've been working on a Force guide for the last little while. Since I'm going on vacation for 8 days tomorrow, I wanted to post what I have so far.

http://omf-o.tripod.com/force/

I'll finish it when I get back. Bye!
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veryorkish



Joined: 23 May 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:08 am    Post subject: Re: New Force Guide Reply with quote

Its a little late (or early if you want to look at it that way) but I read through a little, one thing you can add to the tricks is when playing a counter [insert bad word here] [/insert bad word here] you can do reflector instead of repulser (or is it the other way around) to get a free combo on them. It works I've done it to Rob once actually (the one time I played him) anyhow good job and good night (or morning)
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Mordax



Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 1584
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:14 am    Post subject: Re: New Force Guide Reply with quote

Put it on GameFAQs and Neoseeker
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FlamingMonkey



Joined: 30 Jul 2002
Posts: 8397

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: New Force Guide Reply with quote

Vuen, RP links to j.fLK and Super Bomb.

Also, RK should rarely be used as the backhitter, it's too close-ranged to do that regularly. It's much better used as Force's bounce attack, which launches airborne opponents further into the air or bounces ...groundborne opponents just high enough to Super Gravity Well someone instantly.

You missed a.RP, Force's best distance-hazard hitter when used on foes already in the air.
You missed a.fRP, Force's quick air interception move and also very good in combos.
You missed a.fRK, Force's only non-thrusting air move, for when you're trying to land but there're people very closeby, other moves might lead you into attacks and doing nothing might be equally dangerous.
You missed fLK, Force's quick ground thruster, which I think is vital, especially with such low movement speed.
You missed fRP, Force's best source of fragmentation--fast enough to almost link to just about anything.
You missed a.fLP, Force's suckerpunch move. Wink

I highly disapprove of this comment: "Any moves that aren't on here are not very good attack moves, at least not from what I can see." Attack variation is what makes Force powerful, don't ever forget that.

RP jfLK is one of Force's faster ground-air links, making it a toughie to evade most of the time. Instead, you play around with fLK and Meteor Call, both of which depend upon your agility to reach your opponent (after Meteor Call and before fLK).

I guess it's a good guide, but try not to limit the learners so much: that's one of the main reasons I no longer endorse my own guide.
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Lurker



Joined: 26 May 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: New Force Guide Reply with quote

Quote:
Vuen, RP links to j.fLK and Super Bomb.


but you cant RP with the firebombs in your hands...
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:10 pm    Post subject: Re: New Force Guide Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Vuen, RP links to j.fLK and Super Bomb.


but you cant RP with the firebombs in your hands...


I was so going to say the same thing just now...
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FlamingMonkey



Joined: 30 Jul 2002
Posts: 8397

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: New Force Guide Reply with quote

D'oh! I just remembered that I only did that in a really high lag game where they only activated after I hit. :crazy:
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NightShadow



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:31 pm    Post subject: Re: New Force Guide Reply with quote

Nice guide Vuen, I can't wait to see the final product. In the meantime, here're some of my criticisms. :biggrin2:

I agree with FM, it does seem like you are trying to limit strategies. One of the big reasons why I love Force is because I can vary my playing style so much, since there are so many different uses for each attack. Also, your guide seems to send the message that combos should be memorized. IMHO, the moves themselves, what the link to, when they'll hit, how it affects your target/yourself, etc. is much more important to memorize. There are so many possible situations that it is probably impossible to write up which combo is most useful in which situation. If the player can figure out on their own which moves will flow together in which situation, however, that player will have the edge. That player will have the ability to move the opponent into better combo territory, continue combos started/interrupted by other players, combo into/out of hazards, etc. etc. etc. Providing examples of combos is still a good thing though, as it will provide the player some good starting points, teach new links/uses, etc.

LK is quite nice for attacking opponents that are right to the side or a little behind and to the side: they will usually try to attack and push themselves to where you are standing, but the LK will pull you back and then hit them in the middle of their attack. It also has quite a bit of priority and I don't think there is as much a chance of other player's complaining about the move as they would with RK.

I don't particularly approve the use of a.RK as the main combo starter, but I realize that it is the main weapon of most Forces and can be quite useful. I just had to speak my opinion of it anyway. :p Oh yeah, I also hate the ball of lightning.

I would say that jflk is more useful than you make it sound. The attack is so darned quick it's hard to see it coming (outside of predictability), can be done several times inside of the same jump, and seems to be pretty good at catching those already in the air.

Your guide seems more interested in dealing high damage than anything else, for instance these sentences: "Forget your repulsor combos. Forget catching a falling enemy with your ground light moves. You want real damage." One word, stun. Force eats through stun like crazy, and an opponent that is falling through the air is usually one that is losing stun. Any attack is useful for eating stun, and when the opponent is stunned, you get free "big" damage. The repulsor has been known to eat stun quite quickly as well, and while it does very light damage, it can occasionally be comboed from, resulting in more stun that is eaten.

I believe cimics experimented with using a.lp a.rp or something as a poke; on an opponent that was blocking, it would eat nearly half of their stun bar; on an opponent that wasn't blocking, a.lp is a good combo starter.

Back to the beginning again, I don't think the word best should really be used to describe any combos/tactics. If pro's wrote the strategy guide, then surely they have done practically everything/every combo possible in the game, and so surely these are the absolute best in the game; no need to go looking for anything better. They very well could be the very best possible in the game, but IMO, it's always good to have people that will look for something that is even better.

You should probably also mention that lag will change things a bit. Some things that are/aren't possible in single player will/won't be possible online. Some of the combos I have found to be the most fun are those that only worked because lag changed the rules/situation a bit. This goes back to my combo discussion before, someone who can adapt their combos to the lag situation will have a better chance of winning than the player who cannot/will not.

When you get started on your movement section, don't forget that sometimes the best strategy is to make your opponent think you are busy/ignorant. It's always tons of fun to stop the combo you're currently in the middle of to side repulsor/punch someone who's coming to attack your side then either continue the original combo or get lucky and be able to combo the person at your side.

I think that's about all I have for now. Once again, nice guide, I can't wait to use it to figure out strategies against your Force. :p
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FlamingMonkey



Joined: 30 Jul 2002
Posts: 8397

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: New Force Guide Reply with quote

Shouldn't be too hard considering the strict, unvaried rules set down by it. :p
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: New Force Guide Reply with quote

Cool, thanks for the input all. Just got back from vacation, so I can start working on it again.

Quote:
Also, RK should rarely be used as the backhitter, it's too close-ranged to do that regularly. It's much better used as Force's bounce attack, which launches airborne opponents further into the air or bounces ...groundborne opponents just high enough to Super Gravity Well someone instantly.

You missed a.RP, Force's best distance-hazard hitter when used on foes already in the air.
You missed a.fRP, Force's quick air interception move and also very good in combos.
You missed a.fRK, Force's only non-thrusting air move, for when you're trying to land but there're people very closeby, other moves might lead you into attacks and doing nothing might be equally dangerous.
You missed fLK, Force's quick ground thruster, which I think is vital, especially with such low movement speed.
You missed fRP, Force's best source of fragmentation--fast enough to almost link to just about anything.
You missed a.fLP, Force's suckerpunch move.

I highly disapprove of this comment: "Any moves that aren't on here are not very good attack moves, at least not from what I can see." Attack variation is what makes Force powerful, don't ever forget that.


I should have mentioned that the move list I have there is for starting combos on ground opponents. By attack moves, I meant moves that you attack with, like when you and your opponent walk up to eachother and attempt to hit and combo. You don't just walk/jump up to someone and do arp or afrk for example; they're both useless at starting combos on ground opponents because you can't combo from them. I will add an attacks on opponents in mid air subsection though. jflk/jfrk and rk are definitely good attack moves on an airborn opponent and I need a section to put those in Smile. I was just more concerned with the ground game when I wrote this section.

Quote:
I would say that jflk is more useful than you make it sound. The attack is so darned quick it's hard to see it coming (outside of predictability), can be done several times inside of the same jump, and seems to be pretty good at catching those already in the air.


Well, I don't actually find it all that spectacular (against ground opponents at least); it doesn't do much damage, chews next to no stun, has almost zero priority, and it's dead easy to counter out of blocklock any move you try to follow it with. Even if you don't try to follow it, when blocked you get stuck darn close to your opponent and suffer the vulnerability of landing. It can be punished to devastating effects. This isn't saying it's bad; just, not all that it's cracked up to be.

I would agree that it's a very useful attack against air opponents mind you; I'll mention it again in the attacks vs air section soon to be added Smile.

Quote:
RP jfLK is one of Force's faster ground-air links, making it a toughie to evade most of the time. Instead, you play around with fLK and Meteor Call, both of which depend upon your agility to reach your opponent (after Meteor Call and before fLK).


I can't seem to get rp to link to jflk at all unless the opponent bounces first. Are you sure it hasn't been changed in the last patch, or are you thinking of LP? It links if you jump forward right after the rp, then wait for the opponent to bounce, but it's really quite slow when done that way. I also can't seem to get rp flk to work with any consistency (it works maybe 1/10 on front) unless again the opponent bounces, which is why I don't have a combo for it yet; I'm just going to take it down altogether.

The rp lmeteor jflk also doesn't depend on your agility, and in fact it's easier to do with a lower agility pilot; I think it's because you have more of a delay until your meteors hit. I can do it more easily and more consistently with Jerry than with Gracy. It's all in the timing; you have to walk forward just a tad to make it link. I like it a lot better than walking up during a bounce and using gravity well or rk because it surprises the enemy, and it's a lot easier to link than walking up to your opponent (because it doesn't depend on agility while walking up and doing rk/gravwell does.)

Quote:
Also, your guide seems to send the message that combos should be memorized.


Well, I do think the starters should be memorized and burned into your brain, and the combos given are supposed to do the most damage while minimizing chance to escape.

However I didn't intend to send the message that the entire combo should be memorized start to finish, which is why the combos given don't have any hardcore air juggles like the combos on the mausoleum or in FM's guide. In pretty much all of the combos given, after a certain point the air juggles given are just simple ones I've been accustomed to using. For example, in the back fragment on bouncy ground, the entire start and first air juggle ([ark] frk lk flk ! lp jfrk lk rk supergrav) should be burned into your head because as far as I can tell it's the least evadable, most damaging, and reuses ark the soonest (less chance to miss out on it from an enemy evade), but past that it's really up to you and what you're comfortable with.

I agree that it's probably impossible to memorize a combo for every situation, but my guide at least tries to provide an introduction to it, by showing combos that only work in certain situations. I want to introduce the player to adapt to the situation instead of finding attacks/combos that work globally; once the player learns to attack the given situations with specific combos instead of their global combo they'll learn to notice and adapt to different situations on their own.

Quote:
Your guide seems more interested in dealing high damage than anything else, for instance these sentences: "Forget your repulsor combos. Forget catching a falling enemy with your ground light moves. You want real damage." One word, stun. Force eats through stun like crazy, and an opponent that is falling through the air is usually one that is losing stun. Any attack is useful for eating stun, and when the opponent is stunned, you get free "big" damage. The repulsor has been known to eat stun quite quickly as well, and while it does very light damage, it can occasionally be comboed from, resulting in more stun that is eaten.


Well, even if moves like the repulsor can chew stun, it's still barely comparable to the stun you can eat by doing a ground fragment or starting with five consecutive heavies and a super for example, and you're much better off making your combo hard to evade instead because you'll chew a lot more stun catching an evade than using a repulsor. The guide focuses on damage and evadability. Hearing gaps in the hits in my combo sends chills down my spine because it just screams "EVADE AND PUNISH HERE!" Not a single combo on the entire guide should have an evident gap to evade in, even to experienced Force players. I feel much more comfortable discarding the rest of the combo with arp for example than trying to float to the ground and use a repulsor. However, that's just how I play it, and I figure I should try not to limit to player to my styles.

In light of the whole 'not limiting the reader', I think I'll cut off the ends of most of the combos on the page, and instead add an Air Juggles section; this way the player can memorize the starters and then use the juggles that they are comfortable with instead of the juggles that I'm comfortable with Very Happy.


As for the lag issue, I did want to explain how these are affected by lag; the problem is, I don't really know! Since the servers are gone I see people online maybe once every two weeks, and so I don't really get the opportunity to test them out much in lag or meet anyone else willing to test them out with in lag. I've used them all in lag but not enough to get a good estimation of how they're affected.

I also need a better title. I don't really consider myself a pro; there are a lot of Force players who could kick the snot out of me. I meant the title to say "Read this to be pro" rather than "I'm a pro so listen", but it seems to convey the latter at the moment :p.

Again, thanks for all the help guys. I'll resume work on it soon Very Happy.

Also, has anyone played around with the crazy superfirebomb link? I'm certain you can do >50 hits with it, but as the guide shows, I'm not one to do it; I can't even fully do most of the combos in FM's guide. But think about it. 16 basic moves, ~20 superfirebomb, 10 supermeteor, 8 repulsor, 2 gravity well, plus the bomb hit... 57 available hits, without using any additional projectiles. Here's a recording of the start; it's all of 7k, so all Force players have a looksee and build up the next 25 moves!

ht[url=http://][/url]tp://omf-o.tripod.com/force/forcesfbcombo.zip
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:42 pm    Post subject: Re: New Force Guide Reply with quote

actually j.fLK is awesome, i never manage to counter it well, and air attacks as combo starters are also good, most of my game goes through the air, mostly because you can do awesome maneuvres using air evades (and because pyros possibly is one of the fastest HAR's in the air), while air attacks often carry huge loads of priority. Smile

Also RP j.fLK DOES link, i never really missed it tbh (i always combo with gracy)
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: New Force Guide Reply with quote

Quote:
actually j.fLK is awesome, i never manage to counter it well, and air attacks as combo starters are also good, most of my game goes through the air, mostly because you can do awesome maneuvres using air evades (and because pyros possibly is one of the fastest HAR's in the air), while air attacks often carry huge loads of priority. Smile

Also RP j.fLK DOES link, i never really missed it tbh (i always combo with gracy)


If rp jflk links then could you please get me a replay? I can't seem to get it to work at all. It hasn't linked for me even once; it only works if you wait for a bounce, or if the opponent is stuck onto a wall.

As for air attacks, I know air attacks are good as combo starters; this is why 4 of Force's 8 air attacks are on the list of attacks to use vs ground, and every single combo in the guide besides the flp combos start with an air attack. I don't quite get what you're trying to say here.

[edit]Wow, the rp jflk link seems to depend highly on agility. I can do it maybe 1/20 with Gracy on front, but as soon as adrenaline rush kicks in I can do it with 100% consistency (I also play on Nitro in case that makes a difference). It really isn't all that fast as a ground to air link though. Anyway, I'll play around with it and see what I can come up with...
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: New Force Guide Reply with quote

i have trouble understanding how you can possibly fail 19 out of 20 times in gracy :\ (i combo rk f.LK RP j.fLK, never fails
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Zelig



Joined: 08 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: New Force Guide Reply with quote

Vuen: I've managed a 47 hit combo with super firebomb, but I tacked it on after an AI flew out of one of the zappers in powerplant, and they bounced off the wall at the end. Wink
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FlamingMonkey



Joined: 30 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: New Force Guide Reply with quote

RP definitely combos to jfLK directly (no bounce). You might not be jumping soon enough towards the opponent. I hardly ever see it fail, even in ultra-high lag..
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