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Useless Moves...
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Robyrt



Joined: 09 Sep 1999
Posts: 7606
Location: Virginia, USA

PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

Turtling is almost always boring, until you realize that it takes at least as much skill as playing offensively. Seriously guys, if someone beats you with Pyros LK, that means they're definitely better than you are, because it took you that long to figure out his strategy. Smile If you don't like to watch it, tough luck, don't join the server.
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CloudFFVII



Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 360
Location: U.K.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

lol i have been testing the LK turtling today and i find that 99% of the time people simply evade and punish you big time lol.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

Quote:
Turtling is almost always boring, until you realize that it takes at least as much skill as playing offensively. Seriously guys, if someone beats you with Pyros LK, that means they're definitely better than you are, because it took you that long to figure out his strategy. Smile If you don't like to watch it, tough luck, don't join the server.


That's only true if offense and defense are perfectly balanced out...
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Endy



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 4079
Location: Lost within my own thoughts.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

Quote:
Turtling is almost always boring, until you realize that it takes at least as much skill as playing offensively. Seriously guys, if someone beats you with Pyros LK, that means they're definitely better than you are, because it took you that long to figure out his strategy. Smile If you don't like to watch it, tough luck, don't join the server.



LMFAO

If someone beats you with one move it obviously means they are better than you and makes no implications whatsoever that the move is potentially in need of a bit of tweaking.

Riiiight. Keep telling yourself that.

How about they do the exact same thing with any other move on any other HAR. They will not get the same results. The "skill" comes from the overpoweredness of the move itself. Not in said players ability to dodge around and deliver said move.












Furthermore it's pretty clear IMO that the AI and new players play pyros better than most other HARs, therefore this so called "skill" seems to apply to players who have no skill.














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Endy



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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Location: Lost within my own thoughts.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

Quote:
Yeah, people like that are so easy to beat... lol, its pretty rediculous, because after you block LK, you can start a face spam deal on them.


First of all f.rk ! LK > RK > f.rk ! LK > RK (and variations like f.rk > RK > f.LP ! f.rk > RK > f.lp) should be considered a bug. When done by a pro it completely immobilises the opponent while eating their stun bar and forcing them to either counter or be stunned.

and we all know that a good player will anticipate and punish the counter and stun them during the combo SO THERE IS NO EFFECTIVE WAY OUT OF THIS AND BY DEFINITION A MOVE THAT CAN NOT BE DEFEATED IS OVERPOWERED.

Since f.rk should not link to LK but in actuallity, this pseudo link is uninterruptable and allows you to create face spam that continually pushes you into the target by further abusing the way f.rk continues to "iceskate" forward (if you tap forward and then do f.rk, the f.rk will continue to slide forward) to create a facespam to comletely immobilise the target.

Yes this takes a LOT (believe me... a lot, I still mess it up sometimes) of practice to get exactly right... but that doesn't make it any less of a crippling strategy. This game is not supposed to be about introducing the chance of human error into combos (since all combos are easy to execute except for those which are exploits) therefore doing such does not make a tactic less overpowered than one which is easier to execute.





ANYWAYS..................

So YEAH if you exploit the way jaguar moves link in order to create infinite undefeatable facespam you can beat a Pyros using LK.

However you can beat anyone using that exploi... err "tactic"...

But nooooo LK isn't overpowered. Right. This just further proves the point that it, in fact, IS OVERPOWERED since the only way to beat it is with another [filtered] buggy tactic.





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Endy



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

Quote:
the thing is that LK/fLK spamming leads exactly into those kind of combos Wink


Woah TUF understands the REAL issue here. DUH DUN DUH!! he gets a cookie.



For the rest of you:
The main reason it is overpowered is simply because of risk vs. reward.

The move itself could be OKAY, but to have a move that is very high priority and extremely hard to punish when blocked... and then have that move start the heaviest hitting combos...

Well come on now, obviously if it takes no risk to do... and still delivers a high reward (in terms of combo potential) then we can infer from COMMON SENSE that LK either needs to have more warmup, more cooldown, (increase risk) OR not start top end combos (lower reward).

This is what game balance is about people!!
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:16 am    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

Good, now gimme my cookie :biggrin2:
i agree with most of your points but the one where you say that face spam is the ONLY way to punish pyros LK.
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Robyrt



Joined: 09 Sep 1999
Posts: 7606
Location: Virginia, USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

Quote:
If someone beats you with one move it obviously means they are better than you and makes no implications whatsoever that the move is potentially in need of a bit of tweaking.

Riiiight. Keep telling yourself that.

How about they do the exact same thing with any other move on any other HAR. They will not get the same results. The "skill" comes from the overpoweredness of the move itself. Not in said players ability to dodge around and deliver said move.


Ever lost to someone you knew was worse than you who was abusing Pyros LK? If not, I don't see what all this whining is about. If its power as an offensive move is at issue, do something to prevent it being used as face spam. If it's too good on defense, do something to prevent that instead. This kind of "the best moves in the game must be nerfed" thinking is what led to Jag's total mediocrity in the first place.
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Anonymous
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

only time i had trouble with LK was RIGHT after the patch was released and i had no idea abvout its properties, and TUF was suddenoly a lot harder to beat. After i figured it all out it was no big deal at all... its just another strat, i wouldnt even say its a dominant strat. Pyros's that did almost NOTHING but the turtle/lk like oni sama i found really easy to beat
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
If someone beats you with one move it obviously means they are better than you and makes no implications whatsoever that the move is potentially in need of a bit of tweaking.

Riiiight. Keep telling yourself that.

How about they do the exact same thing with any other move on any other HAR. They will not get the same results. The "skill" comes from the overpoweredness of the move itself. Not in said players ability to dodge around and deliver said move.


Ever lost to someone you knew was worse than you who was abusing Pyros LK? If not, I don't see what all this whining is about. If its power as an offensive move is at issue, do something to prevent it being used as face spam. If it's too good on defense, do something to prevent that instead. This kind of "the best moves in the game must be nerfed" thinking is what led to Jag's total mediocrity in the first place.


Yes give us back the jaguar box of doom, unblockable unevadable 300damage fragment and unevadable combo from beserker, AND the longest and fastest evades in the game whilst being the smallest target, that would definitly make the game so much fun, for everyone playing jaguar that is...
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Endy



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 4079
Location: Lost within my own thoughts.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
If someone beats you with one move it obviously means they are better than you and makes no implications whatsoever that the move is potentially in need of a bit of tweaking.

Riiiight. Keep telling yourself that.

How about they do the exact same thing with any other move on any other HAR. They will not get the same results. The "skill" comes from the overpoweredness of the move itself. Not in said players ability to dodge around and deliver said move.


Ever lost to someone you knew was worse than you who was abusing Pyros LK? If not, I don't see what all this whining is about. If its power as an offensive move is at issue, do something to prevent it being used as face spam. If it's too good on defense, do something to prevent that instead. This kind of "the best moves in the game must be nerfed" thinking is what led to Jag's total mediocrity in the first place.



Sigh. Then don't nerf pyros.

Raise everyone up to his level. The answer is Pyros has a move that is better than other moves. Why the [filtered] is this fair. I don't care HOW you balance it.

...but that doesn't change the fact that balancing is neccesary.








This is just dodging around the issue Roybert. You are saying "do nothing because everytime you do sometihng the game gets less fun".

Well then how can we keep it fun and still have it be balanced? Mabye nerfing pyros isn't the "right" solution. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN TO DO NOTHING AT ALL.

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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

i completely agree with endy here, in BC1 most people prolly loved how Jaguar fought and felt, however yhat feeling Jaguar had to it simply was the feeling of having everything... At that point jaguar had best evades, unbeatable supers (combo from one to the other), sick ground combos... You said that mantis is good at too many things at the same time, Jaguar used to be the exact same.
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veryorkish



Joined: 23 May 2003
Posts: 3196
Location: Here!....Wait, no! There!

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

Chronos is good at being annoying :tongue2:
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raptor
Ancient One


Joined: 02 Sep 1999
Posts: 4511
Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

ill just put in a quick comment, Why did the game feel funier back in 1860 LT than now ? i have many buddies that have asked me just that. They tried the LT at my puters, and tried demo or full version with patches now and wonder why it was so much more fun back then, and not now. I think mordax's idea about putting al teh bots upp a good bit might help alot.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:13 am    Post subject: Re: Useless Moves... Reply with quote

actually i disagree that it used to be more fun, from the point where 2171 was released it was better then anything before it IMHO. However most jaguar veterans from the old days much prefer the old jaguar, likely since it was just that good back in the day..
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