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Gameplay Change Suggestions
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CloudFFVII



Joined: 23 Jul 2004
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Location: U.K.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

pyros (RP/RK) - Jaguar (RP) - Mantis (take ur pick) - Chronos (tele kick at least) - Force (flk) dont use any of the others enough to know lol

oh and when you say thats exactly the point you simply seem to be saying its overpowerd, I'm saying that too, increase its cooldown and any1 has a chance to punish the attack anyway.

Oh and there are other things to do besides simply attack when you block, moving slightly, jumping, charging a move/crystal etc etc etc.
Example Warlord blocks LK then uses super mace beat the crap out of them lol.

you goto think outside the box mate

P.S. Not saying anymore about this particular subject on this thread as its off topic, if you want to argue further with me make a new thread m8.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Am I the only person who really doesn't mind Pyros LK?


Mordax, I must say, I really do like your idea of balance as opposed to most (including mine). I've been watching Oak, Mag, Xar and Darner playing some of the arcade fighting games like MvC2 and XvSF, and it seems a lot more exciting than OMF because there's a lot more going on.

The problem is that there's just too much to change to bring everyone up to that level. You'd basically have to start over Chronos and Jaguar completely, because they simply don't have things like Mantis' huge variety of pokes, or multi-function moves like his sidepunches or dropping spiders for example. Ideally the robots can be brought up to Mantis' level, but not without a lot of time and effort. That's why I'm suggesting five very small changes to drop Mantis and up Chronos to give some immediate balance, and then the robots could be brought up in later patches to make the game more exciting.


Also, I should have mentioned that the changes have to be realistic; saying things like "revamp combat system" aren't very practical. These are suggestions for a whole new fighting game based loosely on OMF. I do agree that the combat system does have some major flaws; when I first started playing OMF, my very first and still biggest disappointment with the game was that there are no crouching attacks. There isn't blocking high versus blocking low anymore; you can just block anything by standing there.

However, this isn't to say that this game can't be salvaged. I later realized that the alternative to crouching in this game is attacks to the sides, which aren't possible in traditional fighters. This is all nice and good; however, the ways that the game provides to get around the opponent, while plentiful (side flips, front flip reverse, air evade, side evade, sidestepping, etc), are simply not good enough. It's like having a huge delay on crouching in a traditional fighter. The game should have focused more on this, the same way traditional fighters balance out standing, crouching, and jumping attacks.
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CloudFFVII



Joined: 23 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

I believe the basic idea of the OMF combat system (in battlegrounds) is to promote mobility over standing still combat (as seen in the origional)

Your comment about no crouching attacks would be irrelevant as a few attacks have animations which clearly hit low and so would require too much revamping of animation etc.

I suggest that if an opponent is within a certain range of you then side evades should circle a full 90 degrees so during long cooldowns you can nicely nip round the side.

Vuen there is a slight problem with LK as it does HUGE damage, 43 in gracy i think and at the moment its a little hard to punish. I have however stated ways round this, those coupled with your idea of improved evades to the sides could work well though so :thumbsup:
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Vuen, youre basically saying everything i said before game was released when they first started making major changes to game. I was the exact same way as you. I was disappointed by lack of crouching attacks at first, thought it would lead to crappy combat, but I was Jag back then and he was king of getting around opponent. I soon found out geting to your opponents side or back was a cool alternative to attacking their legs.

But then they changed the game to make us fight from the front more. I said it then and I still say it, the game has gone downhill. Mashing people from front with your highest priority opener or block-stun traps just isnt very exciting after a while. I had much more fun during the limited test with my JAguar rolling around. I also had much omre fun with Pyros having to use ingenuity and reflexes to stop the Jags from getting behind me. All in all it felt much more action-packed and fighter-like.

I think Endy once said that jag was the only one who felt like a real fighter in the spirit of fighting games, I realize that was true but he'd been watered down a lot and the games been made more simplistic, when what really should have been done was giving the other bots more options so they could compete with Jag (who was back then the most complete and most well designed bot) instead of making Jag just as simplistic and boring as the rest
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CloudFFVII



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

here here Very Happy (best move to use as pyros in that situation is A.RP Smile love that move
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

yup
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

It's too bad I never participated in beta. I only started playing when build 2172 came out, so all I know from previous builds is what I hear from others.

When I play a traditional fighter it feels a lot like rock paper scissors with standing, crouching, and jumping attacks.

When crouching, you can block standing and crouching attacks, but cannot block jumping attacks.

When standing, you can block standing and jumping attacks, but cannot block crouching attacks.

When jumping, you can jump over most crouching and standing attacks, but are vulnerable to many jumping attacks.

Pretty much exactly rock paper scissors; it's predicting which one your opponent will choose that makes the game so fun. With BG as a 3D fighter game, replace crouching with side attacks above, and you have the same rock-paper-scissors 'yomi' system that fighter players love so much. I anticipate his scissors, so I'll choose rock... but what if he knows I'll choose rock, so he goes paper? I should choose scissors! But what if he...

It should have worked. The problem is in balancing these three things to have a good combat system.

Suppose we make paper draw to rock instead of win against it. This puts a severe disadvantage to paper; it's no longer balanced with the other attack types (rock and scissors), so not only does it make itself useless but it destroys the whole system. I anticipate scissors, so I'll choose rock; can rock lose? Nope. End of yomi layering. This is exactly what has happened with BG. Side attacks are at a major disadvantage to air and front attacks, which destroys the 'rock paper scissors' effect.


*hopes Rob reads this thread*


Off topic, this explains the whole 'cheapness' thing too. If your enemy keeps doing rock and you don't realize paper exists, what do you say? "You're boring!" "Is rock all you know?" "Rock has too little risk!" "It's more fun if we don't use rock!" "Rock is cheap!". In reality, it's quite fair to choose rock, because there's paper to stop it; you just have to learn how to use it.

Reminds me a lot of Pyros LK.
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 3:10 am    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Quote:
pyros (RP/RK) - Jaguar (RP) - Mantis (take ur pick) - Chronos (tele kick at least) - Force (flk) dont use any of the others enough to know lol


Mantis RP, Force fLK, those are the 2 attacks that can attack pyros before he is abled to do things about it (block), Giving mantis more time would give Mantis even more power, giving the other HARs would be fine, however what if you could create the same thing, without addind advantage to mantis, still making the others capable of attacking... reducing pushback would do that, so imho a better solution...

@ Vuen, thats a nice way to say that balance is OK, you just need to be better if you decide to choose weaker.
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CloudFFVII



Joined: 23 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:25 am    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

tuffy it makes no difference if mantis has an advantage in that situation lol if mantis can use rp already then he can already do anything he wants in that situation as rp is a great combo starter. Giving him more time in that situation is no greater advantage, it just gives other hars a chance to punish LK aswell. TBH after reading Vuen's posts i change my mind about chanigng LK at all as i forgot you could simply do something else when some1 uses lk on you lol.
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:58 am    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Now i hope you understand after this post:
RP is a nice combo opener, however combos become "evadable" immediatly using RP as opener, if the cooldown would be longer, mantis could perform, j.LK for example, and start a 10 hit unevadable ground combo. (which wouldnt be the case with reduced pushback, and i have yet to see 1 argument why reduced pushback would be less good)
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CloudFFVII



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 5:16 am    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

basically i no longer think LK needs to be messed with at all m8 as i said you can simply do other things, pushback is there to prevent people comboing you straight after but it allows them to get into a better position. Reducing pushback would do just the same as it would allow mantis to start a combo with his close range moves, a 4-5 hit combo could easily follow FLK FRK RK RP for example.
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

actually pushback was put in to make face spam harder, obviously, thats a bit flawed with LKsince the miss/block-stun takes longer then the opponents blocklock.

theres also a small issue with range (kinda hard to explain since its not something that happens often), i wouldnt really consider that very important atm.
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Vuen



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

There. You hate Pyros LK, I hate Mantis Spider Infestation. Now you know what it feels like to be the only person who thinks a move is overpowered.
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Quote:
There. You hate Pyros LK, I hate Mantis Spider Infestation. Now you know what it feels like to be the only person who thinks a move is overpowered.


Doesn't really feel bad though :\
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Vuen



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Of course it doesn't, since you use Pyros. I wouldn't mind Mantis' spider infestation much either if I used Mantis.
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