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Gameplay Change Suggestions
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CloudFFVII



Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 360
Location: U.K.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

I use pyros and i think its pretty balanced overall as the Cooldown on left kick stops you from overusing it, it could however do with a slight damage reduction take off 25% damage from it and it'l be fine.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Quote:
I use pyros and i think its pretty balanced overall as the Cooldown on left kick stops you from overusing it, it could however do with a slight damage reduction take off 25% damage from it and it'l be fine.


Pyros IS a power har, and 25% would be a whole lot :\
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 2:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Pyros does at least as much damage as Force, has longer range on his flamethrowers than Force's meteors, is faster in most of his attacks (save for Force jflk), has way more armor than Force, has way faster and longer air evades than Force... Why on earth did I not complain about Pyros to begin with? I'm changing my suggestions as soon as I decide which ones are most important. But no, 25% is peanuts.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Quote:
Pyros does at least as much damage as Force, has longer range on his flamethrowers than Force's meteors, is faster in most of his attacks (save for Force jflk), has way more armor than Force, has way faster and longer air evades than Force... Why on earth did I not complain about Pyros to begin with? I'm changing my suggestions as soon as I decide which ones are most important. But no, 25% is peanuts.


Range on flamethrowers is dependant on focus stat, theyre rarely longer then the LP Meteorcall, pyros has poor ability to combo including his special attacks, which is a clear downside to his specials aswell, same goes for his supers, forces super meteorcall is among the best supers in the game, i doubt ill ever hear someone say its worthles (unles sarcastic). force has faster ground light attacks and can also combo from these light attacks.

Ofcourse pyros has more power and more armor, a power HAR is supposed to have high on those 2 :p

Force just has kick-butt specials, and is the specials HAR :p
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CloudFFVII



Joined: 23 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

sorry if i wasnt clear i meant reduce the damage on LK reduced by 25% not the har as a whole.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Quote:
sorry if i wasnt clear i meant reduce the damage on LK reduced by 25% not the har as a whole.


then id still consider 25% quite a lot :\, maybe reducing the stun damage as opposed to the health damage would be better Smile
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CloudFFVII



Joined: 23 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:45 am    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

look sorry but i cant see how taking the move from 40 to 30 damage would cripple pyros, LK has a huge ammount of priority compared to RP and RK but all 3 do the same damage.
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:33 am    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Quote:
look sorry but i cant see how taking the move from 40 to 30 damage would cripple pyros, LK has a huge ammount of priority compared to RP and RK but all 3 do the same damage.


LK has less priority then RP and RK... :sweat2:
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Back on the topic, I want to suggest 5 important changes, mostly for Chronos.
On the ground, Chronos has excellent heavies but sucky sucky light moves. Therefore...
1) Make fRK send the oponent upwards and not at all away from Chronos. It should be evadeable coming down half way.
2) Make fLP bounce the oponent a little, so it can only be picked up by either the new fRK or fLK if you're lucky. It should be evadeable at the top of the bounce.
Theese changes should make light moves more available for use on the ground. Of course, Chronos can already use all 8 ground hits in one combo, but look at them. They are slow as dirt! Evade extravaganza! The new fRK should make up for the LP > fLK not so linking on aired oponents, and the new fLP should remain with the same speed and range, so as to be a sort of special move used in extreme situations.
Chronos does not have bad air juggles. They just have desynch problems, and are often difficult to do alltogether. I suggest however the following...
3) Make a.fRP a bouncing move. One that can be evaded from at the top of the bounce, but can be picked up unevadeably by a.fLK and a.LK. Maybe even a.RK after a little waiting.
4) Make RP unevadeably until half way down the fall.
The first change is obvious. It will give Chronos slightly more stable air juggling capabilities. I mean, I can usually fit more air moves into a combo then ground moves, but the air moves are all hard to perform with precision. a.fRP should be a stable move that stopt the combo a little, and gives the Chronos time to rest and figure out what he will do next. No other move of his can do this atm, while other HARs have up to 2.
The second suggestion will help him ENTER air juggles. At the moment there is not a single move that Chronos can just jump up and do after a ground part. j.fRK and j.RP come close, but the two moves that raise the oponent (LK and RP) dont help this. LK doesnt raise him high enough, and RP is evadeable before even reaching the peak of the flight. This change will allow him to continue combos without freezing, allowing more versatility later.
btw, just for reference, RP > ffLP is evadeable. With my new RP it will not be. Same would apply to RP > j.fRK and RP > j.RP. RP > ffLK is evadeable but punishable in the evade. You can not do much more then a.fLK > a.fRP afterwords though. The new a.fRP should help this, and let Chronos combo out with LK > RK > whatever.
more reference: a.fLK > a.fRP is already difficult to link.

And finally, change #5.
Increase ground evade speeds for Jaguar, Chronos and Katana.
This is probobly the most important of the changes listed here.
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Anonymous
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Cloudeh here (away from home cant log-in)

2 points, 1) Jag's ground evade is fine, bin fighting a few people who enjoy rolling around and throwing cc at u and its [filtered] near impossible to land a hit even as host.
2) Sorry TUFFY, as i havnt been on these boards for a long long long long time as u have i do not fully know which words stand for what things in game. I presumed priority was to do with where in a moves animation it counts as hitting, RP and RK on pyros hit shortly after u press the button due to arm pulling back and forward flip, Compared to LK which hits virtually instantly. That is what i meant, again appologies for misuse of terms.

I agree with u tho discomb about katanas ground evades *looks down on katana (or up at katana) with shame*
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Endy



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

1) Fix fragments

2) Make the light HARS combo tree more versatile and make evades actually mean something again (this goes for ALL light HARS like katana and jag and mantis but not force, chronos or any heavies)

3) Remove infinite block spam from jagaur, gargoyle and mantis. Also this includes spam that ends in an unblockable attack (think of warlord or mantis backhit). Also fix spam that relies on Pyroses LK priority or Mantises RP priority.

In general... DO SOMETHING ABOUT SPAM. Counters do not solve the problem, mabye if counters did a noticable amount of damage (or every HAR had a comboable counter) they would, but as they are now... they are usless.

4) Fix chronos (improve his fast links mainly).

5) Nerf Mantis ([filtered] where to start... backit, unpunishable slides, unblockable fragments, block spam, unpunishable supers, too fast, too much priority, too much damage)
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Endy



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
look sorry but i cant see how taking the move from 40 to 30 damage would cripple pyros, LK has a huge ammount of priority compared to RP and RK but all 3 do the same damage.


LK has less priority then RP and RK... :sweat2:


Keep in mind that jags flp physically has the lowest priority in the game, but in practice... it will beat any move because it has no warmup at all and hence it will stop every other move during its warmup.

LK has a similar issue in that its extremely fast startup time makes its priority meaningless. It will stop moves that it simply should not.




Pyroses LK beats jags RK everytime. Jags RK is one of the fastest heavies in the game, and Pyroses LK beats it because it has less startup. Everytime this happens the game will actually desynch because the jag SHOULD win but the pyros wins because of LKS messed up start time.

LK is a borderline blockhit. It has practically 0 startup time, thus giving it infinite priority regardless of what the moves ACTUAL priority is, it will always interrupt any move thrown at it simply because it will be dealing damage while the other move is in warmup.

If LK had a balanced warmup time for a heavy move then this wouldn't be an issue.




In conclusion, lowering the damage on LK would be an excellent nerf since it would make it a less desirable combo starter while still keeping it viable for the people who want to play pyros defensively.

This is a much better solution than increasing its warmuptime to what it SHOULD be for a move that does that much damage since that would completely ruin pyroses defensive game.


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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Quote:
3) Remove infinite block spam from jagaur, gargoyle and mantis. Also this includes spam that ends in an unblockable attack (think of warlord or mantis backhit). Also fix spam that relies on Pyroses LK priority or Mantises RP priority.

In general... DO SOMETHING ABOUT SPAM. Counters do not solve the problem, mabye if counters did a noticable amount of damage (or every HAR had a comboable counter) they would, but as they are now... they are usless.


While I don't agree that Jag and Mantis blocklock is uninterruptible, I do agree that spam in general is an all too good tactic.

I just thought of something just now. What if throws were given a similar warmup-cancel benefit as counters in spam? I'm not saying that you should be able to instantly throw after any opposing move, but if throws were somehow upgraded in spam... Cuz in other fighting games when you're getting spammed, throws are pretty much instantaneous, which is why spam isn't that good a tactic in most games. I'm thinking not a complete warmup cancel, but at least 'partial', so that a throw cancelled after a heavy would beat a next heavy coming in. That and a little more range would at least make spam require alternating moves with a backup period where you escape the range of a throw: heavy light *pause* heavy light *pause* and so on. The counter provides the 'counter' to the light move so to speak, and you end up with a good low-spam system.

What do you guys think?
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Xaronth



Joined: 17 May 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

the reason face spam isnt godly and the name of the game in other fighters is cause you get pushed back after a few blocked hits unlike in bg where its hard to be pushed back.
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: Gameplay Change Suggestions Reply with quote

Katana's ground evades turn me off even more by the fact that her jumping evades prevent her from turning in mid air.
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