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Why doesn't Force have a projectile?
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

OMG, Pyros can use both Flamethrowers in a combo but Force can't use both Meteor calls? ffs, the list just goes on and on doesn't it.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Quote:
OMG, Pyros can use both Flamethrowers in a combo but Force can't use both Meteor calls? ffs, the list just goes on and on doesn't it.


Lol, it would if it actually were useful, pyros flamethrowers are barely even connectable further in the combo, let alone using both. Using a flamethrower in the beginning is stupid, using it at the end kills your combo. (which cant be said for grabity well and meteorcall)
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NightShadow



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

I don't think Force needs a projectile. If a projectile is really needed, there is super firebomb, otherwise, deflect the enemy's projectile (if only it properly retargetted the enemy). Most projectiles do low damage, their main uses seem to be a) annoy the opponent into attacking, and b) stun or otherwise hinder the opponent so that you have enough time to get into melee range.

Force is unable to annoy long range opponents into attacking, since his projectile requires a super bar. However, if you wait long enough (usually doesn't take too much time), it only takes one hit to stun a running opponent. Super firebomb is perfect for this on flat arenas, and can still work with planning on sloped arenas. Super firebomb is fast, widespread, and has infinite range; all of which are desirable in trying to get a single hit in on a running opponent. The main disadvantage of it at long range, is that it seems to be rather easy for the opponent to end up being between the firebombs, rendering all that planning and the super bar useless. When facing a runner, however, it is well worth the risk.

Force's main benefit is that it is easier for it than most other HARs to get a runner next to the Force. First of all, several big arenas, the same that seem to be runners' favorites, have launchpads in them. If the runner is either newbie or just ignorant, a simple grav well is all that is required to get the runner into melee range. Otherwise, what'll often happen is a stand-off of sorts, where you wait for the opponent to get onto the launchpad, and the opponent tries to prevent you from grav welling in some fashion. I tend to lose these stand offs, but they haven't happened enough for me to figure out what the best way to win one is. Force should have the upper hand here though, as usually the opponent is stuck in a corner, and the outcome is dependant entirely on what the Force does.

Otherwise, the Force can just do some vortex flying, and catch up to the runner or do an overhead super meteor to stop the runner. Most other HARs cannot do this period, Chronos can only do so but is forced into a certain range and either front or back, and Gargoyle can fly, but rather slowly compared to a Force being flung through the air and without a good area air-to-ground attack. Force is vulnerable during the setup time to flight, but the flight itself is quick, with enough practice one can aim their landing spot well, and there are a number of attacks that can be used to catch the runner off-guard, the most notable of which is super meteor.

All in all, I don't think Force needs a separate projectile. It has plenty of other viable alternatives, even if they are harder to pull off than a simple projectile.
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Robyrt



Joined: 09 Sep 1999
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Force has almost every other kind of non-melee attack imaginable. He has a flamer (repulsor), he has the game's only projectile reflector, he has vortex (which rocks), he has the admittedly underpowered meteor call, he has the best anti-air in the game (gravwell), plus he has four projectile supers. But he doesn't have a concussion cannon.

I'm not going to harp about how he doesn't need a concussion cannon. Because he doesn't. What he needs is better meteors. In the beta when Force's meteors were actually hard to get through without counters, it made Force cool to play as and definitely intensified his magelike character. (Of course, he also owned Jag and Pyros for free, but that's a different matter.) It also made you actually think to try to run from Force, which I like.
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LoneWolf



Joined: 12 May 2001
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

what kind of projectile would Force use, anyway?

Maybe if Meteor Call was sped up and given some extra range, the were made more powerful, and vortexes were given both more pull and more range, that would make up for it.

The idea of charging Force's carryables always bugged me, anyway.
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Socrates



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Quote:
Of course, he also owned Jag and Pyros for free, but that's a different matter.) It also made you actually think to try to run from Force, which I like.


hehe when i started plying jag vs force was so friggin fun, jags REALLY good mobility vs force's REALLY good repulsor and meteor... you had to fake the force out so bad to get in on him... [filtered] that was fun, i miss that [filtered].

god i hate how they butchered the game
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LoneWolf



Joined: 12 May 2001
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

I think it comes from the open demotest. People who had no understanding of balance got to scream "Nerf Force, nerf Pyros, nerf Jaguar" over and over again.

It was fairly fun before that.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

This turned out to be longer than I intended it to be Sad

Quote:
Force has almost every other kind of non-melee attack imaginable. He has a flamer (repulsor), he has the game's only projectile reflector, he has vortex (which rocks), he has the admittedly underpowered meteor call, he has the best anti-air in the game (gravwell), plus he has four projectile supers. But he doesn't have a concussion cannon.


Only two of Force's supers are useful in combat. It takes time and is way too dangerous to put a bomb in each hand, because not only can they steal them, but those hands are totally useless. The enemy knows this; they know you can't do your all powerful flp lp poke, and they know you can't do your highest priority rp attack and air punisher. It's useless. As for black hole, it's an annoyance at best. Useless in close combat, requires 2 energy bars, needs vortices, and makes the opponents you grab into it ignore eachother and charge you out of retaliation.

The projectile reflector barely works. The homing is bugged; homing projectiles arc the wrong way when reflected, meaning a projectile spammer just needs to use the homing version and turn it a few degrees to be safe from you. Even when it does work, it's like having a projectile, except the opponent decides when you shoot it.

Even if you think all this is good, sure, he has plenty of non-melee attacks; the problem with that is he doesn't have any good melee attacks to complement them (because with that he'd be overpowered of course). All these non-melee attacks chew stun; fighting regularly in Force constantly requires stun. Combine that with a low armor to begin with and you'd swear you're running Windows ME with all the rebooting you're doing.


When I added this thread, I didn't intend to suggest "OMG OMG add a projectile to Force". Like Robyrt said, it needs better meteors, and I would greatly prefer better meteors to a projectile. I understand why variety is important. However, if Force doesn't have a projectile, it needs alternatives to said projectile. I didn't feel as though it had those when I started the topic, and I still don't. Here is the main reason why I want something to make up for a projectile:

Quote:
meteor call is too slow to handle an attacking opponent.. uh... what projectile isnt? really now. i cant remember when concussion cannoning someone whos in your face was a good idea


I use concussion cannon or warlord's missles extensively when someone overly aggressive is walking towards me. Firstly, they'll have a hard time countering, because you can charge it as much as you like to trick them into countering early. Secondly, even if they do counter it, the worst that happens is they smash some more distance between you (or miss entirely, oh how I hate Force's counter). Back to a standoff. Thirdly, they'll have a hard time evading, because evades are short and slow considering reaction time and you can splash both onto the ground which I do often. Fourthly, you can combo with them. Jaguar can link lcc to jfrk or flp, and Warlord can fragment to rk, flk if the enemy gets mad or simply a throw for them to walk into. You have a ton of options after doing one of these, compared to the zero with Force meteor call. Fifthly, it makes them unagressive! You hit them with a projectile in the face a couple times and they learn not to charge you rather quickly. They'll have to get creative and try your sides or turtling instead. The ball's in your court when you get to dictate their attack pattern like that.

Force simply doesn't have a move to make up for this. Meteor call sucks. Period. It's only use is catching an air enemy (which gravity well already does but way faster wider more damagingly and less hit-wasting), annoying a turtle, and in combos. Oh, and getting yourself killed. It does that well.


The problem with not being able fend off an aggressive opponent is most obvious when fighting Jag or Mantis. Force is terribly vulnerable to both, but moreso Jaguar. Ask any Jaguar player what bot they like to thrash most. I guarantee the answer is Force by a mile; I know I sure do and I'm not even good at Jaguar. Allow me to explain:

There are many types of balance; for example balance on a general level, and balance on a bot-per-bot basis. It's easily possible for Bot A to rape Bot B but lose to Bot C when Bot B is horribly overpowered against Bot C. Just because the three are average overall doesn't mean they're balanced.

The perfect example is Jaguar, Force, and Pyros.

Force rapes Pyros: most of Pyros' main ground combo starters, such as rk, lk and flk put him in the air along with his firespins, making him incredibly vulnerable to gravity well. The Pyros is grounded and has to resort to flamethrowers, fireballs and rp to keep the Force at bay. Pyros is the only bot in the entire game whose basic moves are vulnerable to gravity well, except possibly Mantis frk (Mantis lk is invulnerable to gravity well until after the flip).

Pyros rapes Jaguar: lk or flk's speed can outprioritize or punish the block penalty on many jag moves as well as landing cooldown from air pokes, lp has infinite priority (because it's fire), no warmup and no cooldown (unpunishable) so it's the untimate stunlock rape tool, and rk can outprioritize pretty much Jaguar's entire array of moves as well as horribly punish an attempted counter. This is why when 2172 demo came out everybody was screaming about how overpowered Pyros was, because most people along with everyone new to the game played Jaguar and was devastated when they met a Pyros online.

And lastly, Jaguar rapes Force: Force has nothing to fight back an overly aggressive Jaguar. jfrk is faster than meteor call leading to a huge unevadable ground combo (jfrk ark rk lcc bd for example) or it can be countered; either way you eat the stun from trying meteor call. Meteor call is horrible against a Jaguar. Force's right gravity well catches jfrk after it hits you (making it useless), and the left gravity well can't combo it (also useless). Beyond that poke good Jaguars simply don't go into the air to attack. Force's repulsor is horribly short range and predictable, and if the enemy starts blocking it it fills up his entire energy bar and then you get countered, meaning you also eat the stun for trying to repulsor. It's like holding up a sign saying "a repulsor's coming your way!" His specials are all useless, and trying them means you almost totally get stunned.

flp is too slow and only links to lp if you do it fast, meaning either the enemy can predict and counter or the poke is useless. frp doesn't link into anything. jflk has too little priority and you suffer a landing cooldown right in front of the opponent when its blocked (Jag's lk fits in this landing cooldown, meaning you die). flk doesn't do anything flp doesn't. You can't evade or jump or otherwise get out of the way, cuz Jag can rape you with jfrk or ark (both outprioritize Force aflk), or as is much more common simply wait for you to land (block your air attack if you choose) and punish the landing (terribly easily and fatally I might add). Countering? Good luck. With the netcode problems right now, blocklock countering is impossible (the second hit of rk flp, frk lp, etc are all uncounterable even in medium lag), and even if you manage a counter, it's a rock paper scissors match where you're on the losing end, because he instantly evades: try another gravity well or hope he attacks, use a super bar to do super gravity well, or do a side repulsor for all 12 damage. Choose wrong and you eat 2 consecutive combos, cuz either way you just ate half your own stun bar.

The only real moves it can fight back with are lk and rp both for their priority. rp pushes the enemy to a safe distance (note: safe for them) and only links to lmeteor and supermeteor which just screams EVADE ME, so we can ignore that one (rp only links to jflk/jfrk in a COMBO). As for lk, it has block penalty, has very little range, and links to nothing unless the opponent walked forward after you started the lk.

Anyway. I guarantee every Jaguar player out there loves fighting Force, and I see often in servers the Jaguar players upon spawning always charge the nearest Force because they know they're safest. If anybody knows how to fend off a Jaguar when you're Force, please, enlighten me.
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Xaronth



Joined: 17 May 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Quote:
Anyway. I guarantee every Jaguar player out there loves fighting Force, and I see often in servers the Jaguar players upon spawning always charge the nearest Force because they know they're safest. If anybody knows how to fend off a Jaguar when you're Force, please, enlighten me.


i hate fighting force heh ask flamingmonkey hes one of the best (if not the best) force players
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Then how on earth does he beat you??
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

i actually prefer fighting forces over jaguars (most of the time), and i very much disagree that meteor call is useless, however against an aggresive jaguar, it is quite useles.
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Xaronth



Joined: 17 May 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Quote:
Then how on earth does he beat you??


he does tricky stuff, like he will do the backwards jump rk (i think its lk, the one where it hits behind the force), he face spams and he knows how to counter. hes a tough challenge.

but when i fight you i notice your just way too predictable, especially with the counters.
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FlamingMonkey



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Force's lack of a light, long range projectile is balanced with two extremely long ranged supers, just like everything else of his. Don't expect many middle moves, Force is the bi-polar HAR.

As flattered as I am about the Force skills, I'd rather have been mediocre and not been hunted by Player and Xaronth simultaneously all the time. Wink
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Xaronth



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Quote:
As flattered as I am about the Force skills, I'd rather have been mediocre and not been hunted by Player and Xaronth simultaneously all the time.


Very Happy
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Then how on earth does he beat you??


he does tricky stuff, like he will do the backwards jump rk (i think its lk, the one where it hits behind the force), he face spams and he knows how to counter. hes a tough challenge.

but when i fight you i notice your just way too predictable, especially with the counters.


Thats not my fault. Netcode bugs put my counters at the end of any cyclic stunlock loop rather than actually countering like they're supposed to, making it total suicide. I only played you once, on your server with 90 ping. That ping is what makes the counters predictable.

When he backflips and does ark why don't you just block and punish it? ark is terribly punishable; if jag's lk doesn't work then flk will. Backflip and rk is a bleedingly obvious tactic; you can see it coming a mile away. If you see the rk starting, block and flk, and if he lands do jfrk. Heck I can eat a Force alive who does that. Why can't you?
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