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Why doesn't Force have a projectile?
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:33 am    Post subject: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Okay, this has been bugging me for months now, but I've never struck up the courage to ask because I just know that absolutely everyone disagrees with me. I'm talking about it in the IRC channel right now and getting laughed at and ignored. I don't care, I'm asking anyway.

Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Every other bot has one (except Chronos, who can teleport meaning he's his own projectile). So what's the deal?

Any non-Force players will immediately dismiss this. "He doesn't need one!" How is Force expected to strike down enemies that are running away? How is Force expected to surprise enemies running towards him? You may say my opinion is biased because I play Force, but if you don't play Force your opinion is biased as well. Please actually think about this people.


Before somebody tells me that meteors are its projectile, let me just say that that is total [filtered]. First of all, meteors behave very similarly to Pyros' flamethrowers, and Pyros still has a projectile. Secondly, Mantis slides attack similarly to the meteors, and are astronomically better in every imaginable way. Plus, Mantis still has a projectile along with the two throwables it has.


Before somebody tells me that bombs/vortices are its projectiles, let me just say that that is total [filtered] as well. First of all, they are terrible. What good is a bomb or vortice when a Jaguar or Mantis is approaching trying to stunlock/spam you? What good is a bomb or vortice to attack an enemy running away?

Besides, Mantis has two throwables (spiders and flies) and it still has a projectile.


In other words, Force is simply out a projectile, and there doesn't seem to be anything to make up for it. I can't figure out for the life of me what to use instead.

[filtered]. I shouldn't even have bothered posting. Everybody probably quit reading by now. I'm just some other scrub. Sad
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Socrates



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

cause they dont all have to have a concussion cannon clone. variety is good. he seriously doenst need one, and meteor call seriously does work for some of the things you mention
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

See that's what I mean. Do you play Force?

There's absolutely nothing Meteor Call can do that Mantis Slide can't, and Mantis Slide has no warmup, is unpunishable, comboes, uses less stun, recovers stun when it hits, has the same priority (read: infinite), and does more damage. Plus, Mantis still has two throwables and a projectile!!!

Meteor Call is just too slow to handle an attacking opponent. The benefit of a projectile is that when an opponent is walking towards you, the closer he is the faster it hits him. Meteor Call doesn't have that. There's always a huge delay; it takes less time for a homing CC to cross the same range as meteors have.

Seriously Mag. You play arcade games. Take Ryu's hadoken and replace it with Meteor Call. Do you think Ryu would drop down the tier list just a tad?
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Socrates



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote


Yes Force was one of my best bots. meteor call is too slow to handle an attacking opponent.. uh... what projectile isnt? really now. i cant remember when concussion cannoning someone whos in your face was a good idea

as for 2d arcade fighters.. would i trade meteor call for hadouken? ABOSLUTELY. haha meteor call is like the equivalent of a 2d fighter beam. Beams rock. they may not be able to ASSIST you while you attack simultaneously or setup a new position like hadouken can, but you cant really use projectiles in that way in BG anyway
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Quote:
haha meteor call is like the equivalent of a 2d fighter beam.


You mean like Magneto or Cyclops' beams in XvsSF? Those are both way faster than projectiles and have infinite range. Of course I'd trade Ryu's hadoken for Cyclops' beam; that's not what meteor call is. You say Force 'was' one of your best bots. Have you used it in 2172? The range is pitiful, certainly not infinite like these beams, and it's so painfully slow as to be completely and utterly useless.

Meteor call is nowhere near a beam like in arcade games. It's just too slow and has no range.
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Socrates



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

ya i played force in 2172, thats when i started force you silly dude =P

his meteor call IS slower than it used to be, but its still very good... and yes its a beam. sure it may not be as good as optic blast, but is concussion cannon as good as hadouken either? NO. So the moves are just scaled differently.

but honestly, i dont know why you think he needs a projectile. Projectiles in OMF:BG arent even that good. I'd take meteor call over concussion cannon. Since you brought up the issue of 2d arcade fighters, there are lots of successful chars without projectiles. Where's Balrogs? Doesn't he rip [filtered] up in ST?

In the end the bottom line.. all thats importnat.. is whether or not a character can compete. force is definitely very good, I say if a bot can be good without being a clone of the others thats a VERY GOOD THING. variety that does NOTHING to hurt the game shouldnt be seen as a fault. I seriously cant think of a time when I thought "Man, I woulda won/lost this match... if only force had a projectile"
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Balrog doesn't need to chase down a fleeing opponent in a walled off 2D plane. You can never punish someone running away in Force. If you're facing a Pyros or a Mantis and want to put some distance, will you just turn around a full 180 and run in the total opposite direction? Of course not. Not so with Force. You can merrily put all the distance you want and you don't have to worry about getting smacked in the back.
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Socrates



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:10 am    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Quote:
Balrog doesn't need to chase down a fleeing opponent in a walled off 2D plane.


Actually... yes he does. I know what you meant tho =P

Quote:

You can never punish someone running away in Force.


You cant reliably in other bots either. Thats why they added retribution. Only real solution is to let it do its job.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Now that were on it, why doesnt pyros have throwables? why doesnt pyros have something like vortexes!? i mean why force and not pyros!? (oh, i would also like the super meteor call on pyros!) [/sarcasm]

Seriously force's meteor calls are awesome, he can combo from them, they have better range, and hit enemys at any height. Don't tell me i dont play force, since i do play all HARs, and i was playing force before you even got the game. Yes i ahave also played force in 2172 too.

Also dont tell me Mantis can combo from his slides, since then you would be refering to his LK slide which doesnt have much priority, doesnt cover much ground, and does have a cooldown. As opposed to forces meteor call with infinit priority (like all attacks when your physical HAR isnt directly hitting the opponent).

Diversity is good, if force were seriously under powered "OK", but as that's definitly not the case, i dont think force has much of a right to complain about this.
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

The only attacks that effectively deal with runners are jaguar's lasers or warlord's missles (for their high range), the others are either too slow or too dangerous to perform.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Dude Force can't combo out of his meteor call unless the opponent is in the air. It doesn't link to anything.

Even if you can't combo from Mantis slides, they are still astronomically better than meteor call, and Mantis STILL HAS 2 THROWABLES AND A PROJECTILE!

People have been complaining lately about how everyone should be brought up to Mantis' level, not the other way around. And here I am taking flak because I suggest upping Force to match Mantis instead of the other way around.
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

SOME people have been talking about bringing HARs upto mantis level, most people have been talking about nerving Mantis Smile

Either way forces meteor calls are great attacks, regardles of how good mantis slides are.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Quote:
The only attacks that effectively deal with runners are jaguar's lasers or warlord's missles (for their high range), the others are either too slow or too dangerous to perform.


How is anything dangerous to perform on a runner? As for slow, projectiles travel way faster than a person's running speed. I don't understand how they could possibly be considered too slow.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Quote:
SOME people have been talking about bringing HARs upto mantis level, most people have been talking about nerving Mantis Smile

Either way forces meteor calls are great attacks, regardles of how good mantis slides are.


That's not the point. The point is Mantis still has way more than Force. Even if Meteor Call is great, Mantis slide is also great, and Mantis STILL HAS 2 THROWABLES AND A PROJECTILE!
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Socrates



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Why doesn't Force have a projectile? Reply with quote

Quote:

People have been complaining lately about how everyone should be brought up to Mantis' level, not the other way around. And here I am taking flak because I suggest upping Force to match Mantis instead of the other way around.


well my "flak" is because

1) you bashed meteor call, an awesome move
2) Force doesnt need a projectile, honestly
3) I've always been a huge advocate of anti-nerfing pro-buffing. But i've always suggested buffing HARs in their OWN UNIQUE WAY so they all have their [filtered] to use.
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