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It's all about thrust and range, isn't it?
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FlamingMonkey



Joined: 30 Jul 2002
Posts: 8397

PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:00 pm    Post subject: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

After playing a few short matches against someone online, I realised that Force's Gravity Well is very effective at preventing many oncoming attacks, particularly those of Katana and Pyros, because both have heavies and specials that lift you off the ground. This sort of eliminates a lot of the match's spontaneity, doesn't it? I mean, you can still survive and beat the Force using your other attacks, but they suck. Besides, everyone likes to use air openers.

But then I also realised that it wasn't that Gravity Well is too powerful, it's that nobody uses enough of their ground moves. Then I asked myself why, and came to the conclusion that most HARs (such as Jaguar), don't reach or thrust very far when using their ground attacks. That means that it's a significantly bad idea to run up and try to hit someone with a short ranged attack, when the results won't differ much from using a longer ranged attack.

Increasing the thrust/range (thrust being a travelling move, while range being area of effect) of most moves would do the trick. It would put Jaguars and such on an even playing field with Mantis, Gargoyle and Pyros--the three HARs with the most thrust/range on their attacks. Look at the HARs as a whole.

The most frequently debated (high balance-wise) HARs seem to have better reach than the rest, and the ones left without it? Chronos, Katana, Jaguar. Katana has a high attack speed and various tricks to help her bail out of tough situations, so she's ok for the most part. Jaguar and Chronos, though... they don't have a really high power or attack speed or reach. It matters, and it puts them at a disadvantage by making the player work harder to get the same results.

While a lot of moves should have higher range and thrust, I think that some moves should stay short-ranged, but have greater power compared to others. Does that make sense to you?

Range/Thrust may not be the only thing that would help the game, but it's starting to look like quite a biggie to me--and with almost no mention on the forums, as well. As it is, the game seems centred on landing air attacks or waiting for your oponent to offer an opening when you're playing as a low-reach HAR.

Also, it has just occurred to me that this would help out the mass-brawling aspect of the game, allowing people to really get in there and cause some chaos without having to use Blackholes and Super Fireballs for once.

There're a lot of ideas flying around right now about fancy 3-bar supers and single player revisions and other things, along with balance (which would, IMO, be almost altogether solved with more reach), but don't you think that the gameplay, although great in its own right, could really use this little something more?
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Yup, I've noticed the same thing. The only real way to thrust in most bots is to jump attack, which blows. There is way too much emphasis on air attacks in this game. Most fighting games have all sorts of ways to thrust on ground. Many moves themselves thrust forward with little penalty; in BG you can't thrust forward on grount without some huge risk (in following with your "ignore Mantis" rule :p).

Then you have dashes. I still for the life of me can't figure out why we only have side evades. This is one of the first things I wondered when I started playing the game. Why can't you evade forward or backward? This is a fundamental move in all sorts of fighting games. Having these extra 2 evades would even out the bots so much. You could now do the backflip trick with backevades so you don't have to air attack (given adequate thrusting moves). Predicted backevades could be hit with a projectile. You could forward evade out of a reset/fragment. All bots could now thrust well with a forward evade and barge into a melee. The game would rock so much more. Plain and simple.


Personally I think all ideas proposed so far to change supers suck. There are so so so so so many more important things that could be changed, and I understand that we need to talk about something new which is why I don't barge into those topics and tell everyone to shut the heck up, but I just find those debates extremely trivial compared to some of the more important stuff like the fundamental close-combat system which we're discussing here.
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veryorkish



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:54 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

I believe at some point there were forward and backward ground evades. Chronos' main falacy is that his 'advantage' is catchable and predictable...
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:07 am    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Hmm i don't really see how pyros has better thrust then Chronos.
Lets see here
Pyros Thusting:
Heavy: RK 50%
Heavy: RP 75%
Light: fLP 15%
Light: fLK (only when having good forward speed)

Chronos:
Heavy: LP 75%
Heavy: RP 20%
Heavy: RK 10%
Light: fLK 40%
Light: fLP 10%

Since pyros fLK is dependent on speed, and only has effective forward range when running, you could consider Chronos having the better of pyros here.

I do think that for offensive gameplay, trust attacks are fine, not required though, and Jaguar IMHO makes up for his lack of heavy thusts in its light pokes.
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Robyrt



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:41 am    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

This is DEFINITELY one of the things that annoyed me most the first time I picked up BG. Almost every fighting game character, 2D or 3D has effective ways to move forward while attacking. It's one of the most natural things to do in a game. Instead, in BG, most of the moves have almost no reach, and those that do have some horrible disadvantage. Unless you're top tier, of course.

And although a backdash may seem natural, imagine how much extra power it would give turtlers. "I see a Pyros RP coming my way! Backdash and punish!"
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Chronos has four ground moves with adequate poking range.

Heavy: LP 75%
Heavy: RK 40% (not 10...)
Light: fLK 50%
Light: fRK 60%

I refuse under any circumstances to believe that Chronos does not have long range ground moves. Problems are...

LP: Slow and forseen. Also far knock sometimes.
RK: Very slow
fLK: Less range then it looks like it has, and sometimes misses airborn oponents alltogether from any side besides the back.
fRK: Cant follow with anything without risking your life to a deadly combo.

I'd say Pyroses specials more then make up for this though. Chronos has teleports, but they charge slowly and are seen even by the blind. He also has 4 cristals which are all great, but spawn at dirtspeed. Pyros has an almost instant firespin, and not only that, but in three directions, and from the air.

Still, TUF's point stands

PS: Katana has back evade.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
This is DEFINITELY one of the things that annoyed me most the first time I picked up BG. Almost every fighting game character, 2D or 3D has effective ways to move forward while attacking. It's one of the most natural things to do in a game. Instead, in BG, most of the moves have almost no reach, and those that do have some horrible disadvantage. Unless you're top tier, of course.

And although a backdash may seem natural, imagine how much extra power it would give turtlers. "I see a Pyros RP coming my way! Backdash and punish!"


True, but you'd need something to counter all these thrusting moves we're talking about, and if projectiles were sped up they would be a great counter to back evades. I mean really, suppose you have a backwards roll in Jaguar. Could you still punish Mantis rp? Not a chance. If all bots had thrusting moves like this, back evades wouldn't be so much of a problem.

If they turn out to be unbalanced, back evades could be given a large cooldown to prevent you from attacking out of them, or something of the like. But if you think about it, it'd be almost exactly like a backflip except on ground, and there's nothing unbalanced about backflips.
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
Chronos has four ground moves with adequate poking range.

Heavy: LP 75%
Heavy: RK 40% (not 10...)
Light: fLK 50%
Light: fRK 60%

I refuse under any circumstances to believe that Chronos does not have long range ground moves. Problems are...

LP: Slow and forseen. Also far knock sometimes.
RK: Very slow
fLK: Less range then it looks like it has, and sometimes misses airborn oponents alltogether from any side besides the back.
fRK: Cant follow with anything without risking your life to a deadly combo.

I'd say Pyroses specials more then make up for this though. Chronos has teleports, but they charge slowly and are seen even by the blind. He also has 4 cristals which are all great, but spawn at dirtspeed. Pyros has an almost instant firespin, and not only that, but in three directions, and from the air.

Still, TUF's point stands

PS: Katana has back evade.


I wasnt talking directly about range, if i said i was, i misstated, i was talking about thusting, meaning how far your position will be ahead after the move, compared to before the move.

fLK of chronos only has thusting power when used in movement, when standing still and performing fLK you get nearly no thrust. (similar to pyros fLK, but for pyros fLK you need to be running before the attack has thrust.
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FlamingMonkey



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Keep in mind that attack speed and protect moves are very important (Protect Moves are what I call attacks such as Pyros's RP or Force's LK). Personally, I don't think that they are quite as important as thrust and range, but they are significant--as Chronos proves.
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

So, is Warlord lowest in the balance rankings then? his thrusting attacks are less then any other HARs.

Also, how does Chronos prove protect moves are signifficant? by not having them? :confused:
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FlamingMonkey



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Warlord doesn't have much thrust, but he has significant range, the other one. He's also got what seems to be the highest thrust of a normal attack, albeit only one attack, for desperate times.

Range, as in, doesn't carry you far but reaches far regardless. Pretty wide stuff, too. In all honesty, I think Warlord is great the way he is, I've never had real trouble confronting Warlords using any HAR that wasn't my fault.
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

I mostly agree with that, though his grapples should be counterable.
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veryorkish



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Then they would be useless one on one then wouldn't they...

If your on an even surface you could duck...
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
Then they would be useless one on one then wouldn't they...

If your on an even surface you could duck...


How would they be useless? how is any unblockable attack that can be combo'ed from and can be fragmented into possibly useless? :confused:
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Meowbeast



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

I've gotten pretty good at ducking warlord grapples.
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