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It's all about thrust and range, isn't it?
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Xaronth



Joined: 17 May 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
Tuffy, have you ever played any other fighting game than OMF?


yeah he has, just cause you touched and had an orgasm over xmen vs sf and st doesnt mean your a pro.

get off your high horse.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:19 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Quite honestly i don't see any point for it, HARs like Jaguar and Warlord already have awesome light attacks/combos and certanly do not need this "hop". HARs like pyros wouldnt even make use of this "hop" or whatever you want to call it since its light attacks will still suck just as much. HARs like mantis could much too easily fragment out of it, HARs like force could start a heavy damage combo out of it, HARs like jaguar could also fragment out of it sickly. Quite honestly i can't think of a way this could possibly balance anything. Chronos would still be stuck with sucky attacks and can't even combo well from his light attacks, he'd go even further down the balance line.

So tell me, where is that "little" balancing? quite honestly this problem would not only severely disbalance the game, it would also make combos, which are already too powerful, even more powerful, further ruining the game.

Is there ANY good point to this idea at all?


Tuffy, have you ever played any other fighting game than OMF? The whole point of other games is to attack. You get huge advantages for being agressive. OMF is the opposite way, which is why it's so boring in 1v1 combat. You just can't thurst in BG. It's not possible without some huge disadvantages that you don't have in other games.

Also, Jaguar frp does not link to bd, and Force frk is a heavy move regardless of the key combination, so you're wrong about both of those. I didn't mention Chronos because it's already at a disadvantage.

And what does any of this have to do with fragments? Explain how on earth a dash would help you fragment, and while you're at it do explain how you made the determination that Jaguar and Mantis would be so much better at it than other bots.


First: I have played several other fighting games, and i don't care what they're like, were not discussing other games, were discussing OMF, Get off your high "[filtered] i play other fighters" horse and stop boasting.

I'm glad you pride yourself in reading your post thoroughly multiple times to make sure you say exactly what you intend to, but please, also pride yourself reading posts of others.
The Force fRK was stated (by the originator of the idea/concept in this thread) to be a light move, and usable after the dash.

Even if fRP doesnt link into BDash (like i care) the point still stands, since you CAN fLP RK into beserker dash. HOLY !!! 3 attacks more on mantis unevadable! OMGWTF! Don't you agree?

"I didn't mention Chronos because it's already at a disadvantage." I don't see why this is any reason not to mention it, you did mention Mantis also because he is already at advantage. The fact that Chronos is already at disadvantage only means its a better example.

Mantis and Jaguar are simply the only bots with unevadable fragments:
Mantis: fLP fRP * RP
Jaguar: fLP fRP * OT

Both out of light attacks, which makes fragments very relavant since its a huge part of the current balance.

Now instead of pissing on everything anyone says you don't like and trying to get as far up Endy's *ss as you can, start thinking and read what you're saying + replying to.

Idiot. (OMGWTF! I just posted a personal attack! It MUST be because i can't say what i mean accordingly.)(Well actually it's exactly what i mean... D'oh...)
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FlamingMonkey



Joined: 30 Jul 2002
Posts: 8397

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
Mantis and Jaguar are simply the only bots with unevadable fragments:
Mantis: fLP fRP * RP
Jaguar: fLP fRP * OT


You mean from the front, right?
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:23 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Mantis and Jaguar are simply the only bots with unevadable fragments:
Mantis: fLP fRP * RP
Jaguar: fLP fRP * OT


You mean from the front, right?


Yes.
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Socrates



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

hmmm

overall i wouldnt say being too defensive is too effecive in BG. it ges you owned from what ive seen. but does that mean that offnese is good enough? i dunon, not necesarilly. i think the problem is that offense and defense BOTH kinda suck.

Now.. there are also decent amount of attack options. One of the problems I have with them is that lots of the attafck options take huge amounts of STUN.. and come on we all know the game revolves arond stunning your opponent. so in that sense your attack options are limited. but i dont think its a lack of thrusting moves

whoa holy [filtered] i didnt know TUF could flame =D

ya vuen youre stereotyping fighters too mcuh bro, there are plenty of fighters with less thrusting than OMF that work out. there are many differnet styles of fighters. they dont all have to be a certain way. Saying "other fighters" when you really mean "the only other fighter ive played (XvSF)" isnt very accurate
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CloudFFVII



Joined: 23 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

LOL @ TUFFY, You say vuens climing up endy's [filtered] get your face out of xar's butt crack n read peoples posts, and do you have to quote peoples ENTIRE posts to reply the fact your replying shows thats its about THE PREVIOUS POST, it just makes your texts look bigger but i suppose ur used to makin things look larger than life.

You DID assume that the dash would help Mantis and Jag more than others, To be honest ALL it would do is allow combat to flow a little better by cutting down engagement delay.
It wouldn't help mantis that much, he could dash and use flp rp (evadable here), the only realistic combo starter is flk, frk, a.lk, a.rk or miss the flk. which he can do due to range on those moves ALREADY. big deal, consider hars with short range light attacks like Chronos he can dart in and get a hit then freeze an opponent and have some stasis fun. Jaguar can lead into bd sure but he can do that anyway due to frp range..... Katana's light moves with the exception of frk all have poor range and could be used a little more. Pyros can use it to get flk and combo an opponent, just lowers the damage of his usual combos slightly another MAJOR change....... Warlord could actually get stuck in instead of poncing around with defensive tactics. Nova could be played defensively in omf2097 but he was SO much cooler getting stuck in with his mid punch's ah the good old days.
To be HONEST the back dash is much more important as it would make it a lot harder to flank people, i mean think about it realistically at the moment some1 with high agil pilot or har can just walk round to your side before you can turn and lay into you with an unblockable combo. Realistically you would just dart back a little and attack them from the side instead.

Course theres no point me saying all that as tuffy after reading the first sentance will have decided to slag this post off regardless of content, I'll prolly get a dose from xar aswell but meh thats life.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm glad you pride yourself in reading your post thoroughly multiple times to make sure you say exactly what you intend to, but please, also pride yourself reading posts of others.
The Force fRK was stated (by the originator of the idea/concept in this thread) to be a light move, and usable after the dash.


And I already said I don't agree with what the originator of the idea/concept said dumb [filtered]. I started my post by saying Cloudeh's idea was bad, so I gave my own idea. I said individual moves would have to be picked for it, you can't just blanket "all light moves" for example. I already said this.

Quote:
Even if fRP doesnt link into BDash (like i care) the point still stands, since you CAN fLP RK into beserker dash. HOLY !!! 3 attacks more on mantis unevadable! OMGWTF! Don't you agree?


This doesn't link either. When flp links to rk it drops the opponent off without pickup. Even if you could link it the enemy can still evade.

That's twice in a row you make up a combo off the top of your head that doesn't even work. Get your facts straight before you try arguing something. I don't know why I even bother reading your posts.

Quote:
Mantis and Jaguar are simply the only bots with unevadable fragments:
Mantis: fLP fRP * RP
Jaguar: fLP fRP * OT

Both out of light attacks, which makes fragments very relavant since its a huge part of the current balance.


Sure it has a huge part of the current balance, but it has almost nothing to do with forward dashes. Both 'flp frp' and 'flp frp' only do about 30 damage, less than a heavy move. It would matter if they could say instantly stun the opponent with it, but 30 damage is really not that big a deal.

And Mantis can do way better unevadable fragments than that off of light moves; this is something that needs to be fixed regardless, so it still has nothing to do with forward dashes. Try this:
frk alk lp rk flk flp frp ! rp <juggle>

Quote:
Now instead of pissing on everything anyone says you don't like and trying to get as far up Endy's *ss as you can, start thinking and read what you're saying + replying to.

Idiot. (OMGWTF! I just posted a personal attack! It MUST be because i can't say what i mean accordingly.)(Well actually it's exactly what i mean... D'oh...)


Just yesterday Oak starts talking about how Endy and I are gay lovers. What? Just because I agree with someone on certain topics means we're gay? And now this?

This has officially turned into a Counterstrike forum. I hope you all choke.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
Saying "other fighters" when you really mean "the only other fighter ive played (XvSF)" isnt very accurate


Will you guys give this up already? I've played lots of other fighters, including the Tekken series, the Mortal Kombat series, lots of arcade fighting games... This is just you guys dodging the argument again.

Put up an argument. Show me some facts, unlike Tuffy with his made up combos. Explain how you think this works in some other games, instead of just saying I haven't played them. Something, anything but saying stupid [filtered] like "You weren't in battlecast, you don't know!" and "You haven't played fighters, you don't know!"
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:45 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
LOL @ TUFFY, You say vuens climing up endy's [filtered] get your face out of xar's butt crack n read peoples posts, and do you have to quote peoples ENTIRE posts to reply the fact your replying shows thats its about THE PREVIOUS POST, it just makes your texts look bigger but i suppose ur used to makin things look larger than life.

I'm not up Xaronth's [filtered], and incase you didnt notice, he only stated a fact.

Quote:
You DID assume that the dash would help Mantis and Jag more than others, To be honest ALL it would do is allow combat to flow a little better by cutting down engagement delay.
It wouldn't help mantis that much, he could dash and use flp rp (evadable here), the only realistic combo starter is flk, frk, a.lk, a.rk or miss the flk. which he can do due to range on those moves ALREADY. big deal, consider hars with short range light attacks like Chronos he can dart in and get a hit then freeze an opponent and have some stasis fun. Jaguar can lead into bd sure but he can do that anyway due to frp range..... Katana's light moves with the exception of frk all have poor range and could be used a little more. Pyros can use it to get flk and combo an opponent, just lowers the damage of his usual combos slightly another MAJOR change....... Warlord could actually get stuck in instead of poncing around with defensive tactics. Nova could be played defensively in omf2097 but he was SO much cooler getting stuck in with his mid punch's ah the good old days.
To be HONEST the back dash is much more important as it would make it a lot harder to flank people, i mean think about it realistically at the moment some1 with high agil pilot or har can just walk round to your side before you can turn and lay into you with an unblockable combo. Realistically you would just dart back a little and attack them from the side instead.

Course theres no point me saying all that as tuffy after reading the first sentance will have decided to slag this post off regardless of content, I'll prolly get a dose from xar aswell but meh thats life.

Yeah, you indeed shouldnt be abled to get to someones side... Wake up Cloudeh, the game already isnt 3 Dimensional enough, more methods of preventing someone getting behind you is only going to make that worse. Not only that, but your statement was completely useles since the freezeray isnt a light attack, Chronos would have NO advantage out of this whereas Mantis would get advantage.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
I'm glad you pride yourself in reading your post thoroughly multiple times to make sure you say exactly what you intend to, but please, also pride yourself reading posts of others.
The Force fRK was stated (by the originator of the idea/concept in this thread) to be a light move, and usable after the dash.

And I already said I don't agree with what the originator of the idea/concept said dumb [filtered]. I started my post by saying Cloudeh's idea was bad, so I gave my own idea. I said individual moves would have to be picked for it, you can't just blanket "all light moves" for example. I already said this.
Yes so? Was i replying to you? i didn't think so either. So when i say his idea gives force advantages using fRK, i am right. If you're going to tell me i'm wrong because in your concept, it would count as a heavy, YOU ARE WRONG, BECAUSE ITS NOT YOUR CONCEPT WERE DISCUSSING.

Quote:
Quote:
Even if fRP doesnt link into BDash (like i care) the point still stands, since you CAN fLP RK into beserker dash. HOLY !!! 3 attacks more on mantis unevadable! OMGWTF! Don't you agree?

This doesn't link either. When flp links to rk it drops the opponent off without pickup. Even if you could link it the enemy can still evade.
When fLP doesnt link to RK, It's still unblockable. When fLP does link into RK and knocks the opponent down, BD has sufficient direction correction to capture any evade, from any HAR, at any pilot speed.

Quote:
This is just you guys dodging the argument again.


Quote:
That's twice in a row you make up a combo off the top of your head that doesn't even work. Get your facts straight before you try arguing something.
I have my facts straight, its your 'facts' i keep correcting.

Quote:
I don't know why I even bother reading your posts.
You're not reading my posts, obviously.

Quote:
Quote:
Mantis and Jaguar are simply the only bots with unevadable fragments:
Mantis: fLP fRP * RP
Jaguar: fLP fRP * OT

Both out of light attacks, which makes fragments very relavant since its a huge part of the current balance.


Sure it has a huge part of the current balance, but it has almost nothing to do with forward dashes. Both 'flp frp' and 'flp frp' only do about 30 damage, less than a heavy move. It would matter if they could say instantly stun the opponent with it, but 30 damage is really not that big a deal.

And Mantis can do way better unevadable fragments than that off of light moves; this is something that needs to be fixed regardless, so it still has nothing to do with forward dashes. Try this:
frk alk lp rk flk flp frp ! rp <juggle>
So what are you trying to do? prove my point? EVEN IF fLP fRP only does 30 damage, it resets into a heavy attack. THEREFOR THIS IS RELAVANT. EVEN IF fLP fRP * RP only does 30 damage before the fragment, this makes the dash useful for mantis for opening combos using RP and give out an extra free 30 damage at the least. HOW IS THIS NOT RELAVANT VUEN?
Quote:
This is just you guys dodging the argument again.


Quote:
Quote:
Now instead of pissing on everything anyone says you don't like and trying to get as far up Endy's *ss as you can, start thinking and read what you're saying + replying to.

Idiot. (OMGWTF! I just posted a personal attack! It MUST be because i can't say what i mean accordingly.)(Well actually it's exactly what i mean... D'oh...)


Just yesterday Oak starts talking about how Endy and I are gay lovers. What? Just because I agree with someone on certain topics means we're gay? And now this?
I don't care if you're gay, i don't even want to know it. All i know is you've been kissing (and more) his [filtered] long enough now.

Quote:
This has officially turned into a Counterstrike forum. I hope you all choke.
OMGWTF! Counterstrike forum, omgwtf f*ckz0rzing evil eh!? OMG he hopes we will all choke! Oh wait no that was just a personal attack indicating he can't argue the points correctly. According to the points Vuen agreed on stated by Endy.

And no, your gayness didnt just come up yesterday with Oak.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Saying "other fighters" when you really mean "the only other fighter ive played (XvSF)" isnt very accurate


Will you guys give this up already? I've played lots of other fighters, including the Tekken series, the Mortal Kombat series, lots of arcade fighting games... This is just you guys dodging the argument again.

Put up an argument. Show me some facts, unlike Tuffy with his made up combos. Explain how you think this works in some other games, instead of just saying I haven't played them. Something, anything but saying stupid [filtered] like "You weren't in battlecast, you don't know!" and "You haven't played fighters, you don't know!"


OMGWTF You've played tekken and Mortal kombat!?

Seriously they both sucked as fighting games. YES, BOTH SERIES.

And in case you didn't read the posts (which is quite likely), here are a few facts related to the issue:

YOU were the one judging my statements as less important because according to you, i hadnt played other games.

YOU are not reading the posts, as obviously, the point was argued. In case you didn't notice:
"ya vuen youre stereotyping fighters too mcuh bro, there are plenty of fighters with less thrusting than OMF that work out. there are many differnet styles of fighters. they dont all have to be a certain way. Saying "other fighters" when you really mean "the only other fighter ive played (XvSF)" isnt very accurate"

He argued your point, offensive playstyles arent the most rewarded in all games. And further used the arguing tactic you approved of (exaggeration) to make a point about your streotyping and lack of playing other fighters.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
YOU are not reading the posts, as obviously, the point was argued. In case you didn't notice:
"ya vuen youre stereotyping fighters too mcuh bro, there are plenty of fighters with less thrusting than OMF that work out. there are many differnet styles of fighters. they dont all have to be a certain way. Saying "other fighters" when you really mean "the only other fighter ive played (XvSF)" isnt very accurate"

He argued your point, offensive playstyles arent the most rewarded in all games. And further used the arguing tactic you approved of (exaggeration) to make a point about your streotyping and lack of playing other fighters.


bingo. how are you gonna ignore 95% of what i actually said, and then complain that i dont say enough. lol. and yeah TUFs right, i was exagattating my point on purpose... i mean of course youve played stuff besides XvSF, you should know i know that cause I've PLAYED a couple others with you =P
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Xaronth



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
Something, anything but saying stupid [filtered] like "You weren't in battlecast, you don't know!" and "You haven't played fighters, you don't know!"


likewise fool dont say stupid things you cant back up. your just asking for it.

cloudeh your not gonna get [filtered] from me. i mean, is it really worth the effort?
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CloudFFVII



Joined: 23 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:07 am    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Tuf, this fighter struggles to be 2dimensional as you have no way (appart from slow projectiles) of getting people in the air and when u jump u have to wait till u reach the ground before u can attack with the exception of pyros jag and gargoyle who have limited air-ground attacks...... It may as well give up being a 3d fighter and concentrate on varying the current combat.

To be a truely mobile fighter it would be better to give up on the variety of attacks and make the ones left easier to mix into movement, for example being able to attack while running past someone without stopping would greatly increase the mobility, Combo's wouldn't be so overpowered as they would be a lot harder to land against agile opponents. It would greatly increase the skill needed to play but it wouldn't solve the existing lag problems, The dash's would simply be a way of getting ALMOST that kind of movement without having to redo the entire game engine.....
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Discomb



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:14 am    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
LOL @ TUFFY, You say vuens climing up endy's [filtered] get your face out of xar's butt crack n read peoples posts, and do you have to quote peoples ENTIRE posts to reply the fact your replying shows thats its about THE PREVIOUS POST, it just makes your texts look bigger but i suppose ur used to makin things look larger than life.

I'm not up Xaronth's [filtered], and incase you didnt notice, he only stated a fact.

Quote:
You DID assume that the dash would help Mantis and Jag more than others, To be honest ALL it would do is allow combat to flow a little better by cutting down engagement delay.
It wouldn't help mantis that much, he could dash and use flp rp (evadable here), the only realistic combo starter is flk, frk, a.lk, a.rk or miss the flk. which he can do due to range on those moves ALREADY. big deal, consider hars with short range light attacks like Chronos he can dart in and get a hit then freeze an opponent and have some stasis fun. Jaguar can lead into bd sure but he can do that anyway due to frp range..... Katana's light moves with the exception of frk all have poor range and could be used a little more. Pyros can use it to get flk and combo an opponent, just lowers the damage of his usual combos slightly another MAJOR change....... Warlord could actually get stuck in instead of poncing around with defensive tactics. Nova could be played defensively in omf2097 but he was SO much cooler getting stuck in with his mid punch's ah the good old days.
To be HONEST the back dash is much more important as it would make it a lot harder to flank people, i mean think about it realistically at the moment some1 with high agil pilot or har can just walk round to your side before you can turn and lay into you with an unblockable combo. Realistically you would just dart back a little and attack them from the side instead.

Course theres no point me saying all that as tuffy after reading the first sentance will have decided to slag this post off regardless of content, I'll prolly get a dose from xar aswell but meh thats life.

Yeah, you indeed shouldnt be abled to get to someones side... Wake up Cloudeh, the game already isnt 3 Dimensional enough, more methods of preventing someone getting behind you is only going to make that worse. Not only that, but your statement was completely useles since the freezeray isnt a light attack, Chronos would have NO advantage out of this whereas Mantis would get advantage.


Ahem...
Chronos Dash > fRK > fLK ! LK > RK > LP > fLK > RP
That fragment is not at all easy to evade, and both fLK and fRK have quite a bit of range.
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