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It's all about thrust and range, isn't it?
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Yeah like magni said, Pyros does have plenty of thust.

j.fLP and j.fRP (a.LP or a.LK as follow up), or j.fRK or forwardflip a.RP. Pyros owns the air, if you're going to use his weaknes in an attempt to win then ye, the crowd will probally go easier on you then most opponents would.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by defense. I don't mean just sit there and block everything. I mean smart defense.

I'm sure you'll agree that spam attacks usually come in patterns, especially when they start with light moves. Light links only work when you dial it in right away, so the enemy has already decided if they're going to combo off of it before they see whether if hits you or not. For example, say a Force is attacking you who likes to pick you up with a quick 'flp lp' pickup. So if you're playing a smart defense, wait till you see a flp coming, then counter the lp.

Eventually the enemy can bait it, at which point you just stop countering, effectively ruining the enemy's chances at that combo. You can just block it from now on, and even on the offchance that it hits you, a flp hit on its own is useless.

To disprove your Pyros afrp example, what can you possibly tick afrp into? Unless you're fighting a Warlord, doing jfrp jumps you right over the opponent; you need to pause in mid air to drop low enough for it to be blocked. Even once it's blocked, you can't tick it into anything unblockable, and you get a vulnerability period upon landing. Regardless of how you use it, poking with afrp gives you a vulnerability that a defensive player can punish. In this case again, defensive players at at an advantage.

Unless I'm fighting a Jaguar I always do better playing defensively, regardless of what robot I use, and most other non-Jaguar players do too (especially in a FFA). Anything the opponent does opens up a vulnerability. You can just wait for it and punish.
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
Yeah like magni said, Pyros does have plenty of thust.

j.fLP and j.fRP (a.LP or a.LK as follow up), or j.fRK or forwardflip a.RP. Pyros owns the air, if you're going to use his weaknes in an attempt to win then ye, the crowd will probally go easier on you then most opponents would.


Doublejumping and doing afrp moves you too far; most times you jump right over the enemy. Even then, all these other moves are air moves, and a lot of them have too low priority to be of any use.

Even if you don't do squat and block all of the Pyros' air moves, the time it takes it to get back in the air to spam more is enough for you to recover the stun. There's absolutely an opening in repeated air attacks and in this pattern if you exploit it you eat all the stun an enemy has wasted doublejumping. An aggressive opponent effectively stuns himself this way.

Speaking of which, the stun system is another reason why being agressive is so dangerous. Any creative superjumps and evades chew up boatloads of stun.
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

WEell then you've never played Gargoyle, Mantis and Chronos.

Their face spam is simply so awesome that its much better then defensive play. Plus for Chronos defensive play simply sucks, Chronos doesn't have defensive attacks, he NEEDS to be offensive.

Also you're currently discussing an entirely different subject then you initially were. Now you're discussing why dashes could be good which is what you should be doing), rather then arguing my points made against Cloudeh's concept using complete [filtered] reasons refering to your own concept trying to disprove my points.
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Yeah like magni said, Pyros does have plenty of thust.

j.fLP and j.fRP (a.LP or a.LK as follow up), or j.fRK or forwardflip a.RP. Pyros owns the air, if you're going to use his weaknes in an attempt to win then ye, the crowd will probally go easier on you then most opponents would.


Doublejumping and doing afrp moves you too far; most times you jump right over the enemy. Even then, all these other moves are air moves, and a lot of them have too low priority to be of any use.

Even if you don't do squat and block all of the Pyros' air moves, the time it takes it to get back in the air to spam more is enough for you to recover the stun. There's absolutely an opening in repeated air attacks and in this pattern if you exploit it you eat all the stun an enemy has wasted doublejumping. An aggressive opponent effectively stuns himself this way.

Speaking of which, the stun system is another reason why being agressive is so dangerous. Any creative superjumps and evades chew up boatloads of stun.


You've obviously never played Pyros.
First of all, even if forward flip gets you over your opponent, you can still turn in air.

For the rest:
j.fRP a.LK has no cooldown
j.fLP has virtually no cooldown
j.frp a.LP has cooldown but the block animation of the target is too huge to punish.
j.fRK is extremely fast, no cooldown at all (lower damage combo though)

And even if this fails, you can facespam using RK > RK > RK, if the opponent is onto you just use throw, so something like: RK > RK > Throw.

Pyros is not bad at face spam, and does have plenty of thrusting attacks.
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Socrates



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

"Doublejumping and doing afrp moves you too far; most times you jump right over the enemy. Even then, all these other moves are air moves, and a lot of them have too low priority to be of any use."

vuen youre playing theory fighter. im relating my actual game experiences. this [filtered] works. dont say it doesnt.
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

oh yeah and i almost forgot, pyros does have huge priority on his air attacks.
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Vuen



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

My suggestion in the first place at the very start of this thread was that forward dashes cancelling into moves are an excellent way to promote agressive play because they can be used to give thrust to moves without having a penalty for it. This promotes agressive play, which is what the argument is about now, so no, I'm certainly not discussing a different subject than I was before.

And once again I specifically left Chronos out of the discussion because we already know he's low tier (especially in defense) and Mantis is already high tier (especially in offense). I'm talking about the other 6 relatively balanced bots. This isn't a thread about balance between bots, it's a thread about the combat system.

Yes, Gargoyle does have some a good agressive pokes like lp for example, but they are few; if you're smart defensive, you'll see what it outprioritizes and what it doesn't and quickly squash the few moves it has. If you keep trying to jump around or use a heavy move against a Gargoyle who constantly does lp, that doesn't make lp too good, it makes you a slow learner.

And besides, this should be an argument in my favor anyway, because you're better off sitting there in a Gargoyle waiting for the enemy to attack and outprioritize whatever he throws at you with lp. I'd even say lp is a better defensive move than an agressive move because of its low thrust. Its real thrusting moves like lk are very similar to pyros rk and suffer the same vulnerabilities.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

the problem I see is that youd just dash right into the same brick autoblocking wall. rushdown doesnt work without the possiblity of mixups. itd just mean even more face spam, whee.

there doesnt need to be more agression, agression already dominates. what there needs to be is agression that feels like actual fighting instead of taking turns beating on each others blocks going for a stun
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TheUnknownFactor



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Currently a mix between offense + defense is the most effective way to go, but offensive definitly beats defensive. I can see how forward/backward dashes could possibly have improved something, but like you also said in the first post, its a fundamental thing. Right now it would take atleast half a year balancing that.
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FlamingMonkey



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Offense is definitely the power here. The thing is, air offense dominates more often than not. The game is won or lost on the y axis. I made this thread because ground attacks (for the most part) don't seem very effective at all. It's good that reaches and strengths are individual, but only a couple HARs make it more effective to attack from ground than from air.
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CloudFFVII



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

Arcitc nova - Exactly my point about introducing a way to increase the effectiveness of ground moves.

Tuffy - Pyros may be the god of air combat but its easy as [filtered] to see coming, as soon as u see a pyros jump (in low lag situation) backflip and use a thrusting air attack, or simply land n use a special (jag leap chronos etc). Air attacks give too much warning by FAR (not in relation to what air attacks should give but just in relation to how much u have to rely on them.)

I mean can you imagine a real fight between a couple of guys if the only way to get round each others blocks was to jump (possibly with a run up) every single time, the situation would be ridiculous.

I think the main MAIN reason that the combat is so poor at the moment is two-fold, first its a 3d fighter but appart from evades your movement from side to side is virtually nil, you need a way of mixing moves into mobility in general as for a start its more realistic and second, it would flow better. (however with current levels of technology an engine like that might not be possible for a few years yet, I look forward to it though.)

AND there is only 1 generic block (as people have said before), adding a few sweeps would greatly increase the advantages of being aggressive, and if cooldowns were givin just a touch more after being blocked it would give defenders a chance to punish face spam. (ESPECIALLY if crouching simply avoided some attacks).
Attacker scenario (fighting turtler) jump in with an air attack which is blocked then duck and sweep to start a slightly weaker but still acceptable combo.
Defender scenario (fighting against mantis) mantis rushes in (you know your in for a flp or frk) duck-sweep-combo

Of course ducking should make u vulnerable to air moves so in a close combat situation against some1 who u think is gonna duck (say while ur in a mantis cos its my har of choice atm) jump a.rk - combo It would greatly open up the combat system just to add a decent 'duck'+'sweep' to the game.
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Socrates



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

ya largely an air game, largely cause air is a pretty safe way to attack with not much anti air threat ... just like omf 2097
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Robyrt



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:41 am    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

This comes up all the time. There are NO low moves in BG, because they're just too good. No, it's not that bad if all you do is jumpkick (blocked), sweep... but imagine doing facespam with random sweeps, or Pyros alternating j.f+RK and sweep so fast you don't know where to block. A low attack is essentially a fast unblockable, and those just set a bad "defense sucks in general" precedent.
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CloudFFVII



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: It's all about thrust and range, isn't it? Reply with quote

robyrt, if you increased the 'blocked attack' animation then you couldn't face spam at all. You would have to 'trick' your opponent into a high or low block, Noobs would obviously overuse sweeps getting them some cheap hits but then getting them roughed up a lot at higher levels of play.
However this could encourage even more defensive play as people are too scared to risk a high or low hit, to counter that make it so a combo against someone who's just had an attack blocked only gets a few hits by knocking them down fast maybe even only allowing 1 hit and a sweep or just 1 hit. So for example if you attack and fail you get hit twice doing you about 50 damage but if you attack and get your combo in you do (obviously) a little better.
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