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Why is mantis overpowered???
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Lurker



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

Force also has very bad stun resistance... sure force's hits do more damage, but he doesnt have many fast advancement/thrust moves...

Mantis doesnt need much armour because, if you know how to use it well, you wont get hit much... The combos make up a lot for the lack of armour.

Mantis's rp, rk, and alk have huge priority (only mentioning these ones because others arent used all that often), and, In lag, the RP, RP, RP, etc. loop... it's pretty much impossible to counter, and you cant try to use any attacks to stop the loop cause of it's huge priority...

when the mantis is on the ground, if you evade during a combo (being dealt to you), regardless of where you are, you can be caught by a rk or rp (and depending on where you are, side attacks or a slide can be used)... When the mantis is comboing you in the air, it can flail it's arms wildly (aflp, afrp), or use alk to catch you...

Super flies... I dont know where people got the idea that is was supposed to be used defensively... maybe the fact that he leans back when he does it... but... It is good offensively... Catches evades, makes your mantis virtually untouchable (physically) during the period, so people cant just start comboing you while you're fly-ing someone... You can not evade after it, allowing a big gap between flies + continuing the combo...
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BreathFirst



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

Even though Mantis has crazy normals...his defense IS pretty weak
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

When you know how to do it right, his defense can be quite effective... and one other thing... "A good defense is a good offense"
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NightShadow



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

Heh, get ready for a long read. :crazy:

First, a couple of questions for Cloud: Have you ever played against Ouch's Mantis, and have you ever played with decent ping or as the host? Secondly, I'm not sure true "HAR balance" can be described outside of 1v1 situations. Any strategy can be used in an FFA, including hanging back while everyone else kills themselves. And winning eventually comes to one thing: 1v1. Besides, it is much easier to compare with just one other HAR at a time, rather than the countless possibilities of multiple HARs at once and the possible strategies.

Here's my disclaimer in case anything I say is outright wrong. Very Happy I blame any wrong stuff on the following: Most of my Mantis experience comes from fighting Ouch over the last few months, being it seems he's about the only other player that I tend to meet online consistently. Smile I seem to finally have found a way to even the odds in me fighting Ouch, but that last couple of games have had either me having 1+ second pings, or Ouch not staying in my server for very long (I think he's becoming too used to fighting on his server, and so has less tolerance for lag). And of course, I always fight him with my Force. Oh yeah, and I am not advocating nerfing here, I would much prefer my Force and the other HARs boosted. Smile

Anyways, the main reason I think Mantis is overpowered, is that every decent Mantis I remember ever fighting has always required a lot more attention from me to stand a chance than fighting any other HAR (except for whatever Player pilots, and I have very little experience vs. Garg). Mantis seems to have a much more effective counter for whatever I throw at it than it at me. Massive evading will win me a few games, but after the Mantis decides to start evading a great deal as well, we're back to square one again. I blame this on several unique aspects of the Mantis: speed, move recognition difficulty, thrusting moves, auto targeting thrusting moves, ability to force me out of blocking, the mix of throwables and projectiles, and incredible side attacks. Of course, none of these are overpowered at all by themselves, every HAR can counter each of these separately. The problem is the mix of these, they each complement each other a little bit too well, compared to what the other HARs have.

I have a very hard time seeing the differences in Mantis' moves, which makes it very hard for me to be able to react before it is too late. Speed naturally plays a part in this, because the longer it took to complete each move, the more time I have to react. Plus, most of these are thrusting moves, I'm not "safe" at a HAR length away, as I am with most other HARs. Oh yeah, and these moves tend to have slightly different timing, requiring counter to be activated at different times. An example of these 3 together are the normal front attack slides, and the slide that goes around to attack my back. I can't figure out how to see the difference in these 2 attacks until the front one is blocked/successful, or the rear one is behind me. The front slide seems like it reaches an impossible distance, in near instantaneous times, so if I wasn't already blocking, it's too late. The rear slide just barely provides me enough time to evade to the side after I notice it is a rear slide, but naturally lag cuts into this time a great deal. The counter times are pretty much as soon as you see the front slide, or wait somewhat longer for the rear slide, which makes countering these 2 a gamble if you can't tell the difference immediately. And I think both have hit while I was in the air, but I need to try this tactic out more to be certain. Which brings me to the next paragraph.

Mantis' ability to force me out of blocking has no equal, not even Warlord, or an evade happy Jag (although one of those is awfully close). As I said in the last paragraph, jumping is a potential tactic vs. Mantis slides. However, blocking in mid-air is non existant. Then, there are the Mantis spiders, or even the flies. Mantis bugs are completely unblockable, and have a decent amount of speed (see, speed again). The only ways I know of to defeat a spider is to either outrun it, or to jump directly over it. A popular tactic is for Mantis to drop one or two spiders at his feet as I approach, forcing me to: a. run away - leaves back exposed to acid spit and then Mantis sits at your fallen HAR a moment later; or b. jump directly over the spider(s) right to the Mantis - most effective while Mantis is recovering, otherwise, hope you use an air attack with more priority/thrust than his, because you can't block in mid-air. Another tactic is for the Mantis to throw a spider/fly or 2 or mixed behind you, although this is most used after they have had time to charge up. You then have a Mantis in front of you that will try to either get you while you aren't blocking, or keep you block-locked as long as possible (speed, anti-counter) while the bug gets you from behind.

Now, about Mantis projectiles, throwables. First of all, acid spit appears to be exactly like a homing CC, except much less damage, and slightly slower. Secondly, Mantis spiders are awesome (as talked about above) and the flies have their uses. Projectiles are meant for long distance attacking, and meant to be direct with a great deal of speed. Throwables are meant for shorter range, with awesome homing capabilities and much more potential for "trapping" as above for combos or whatever. So, when they are kept separate, they balance each other out quite nicely, and neither is naturally overpowering over the other. However, mix them together into one HAR, and you get the best of both worlds, and become a god of projectile wars, trapping, and whatever else these are useful for. This is the only place where I would ask for a nerf, as these 2 forms of projectile are simply not meant to be used together. They are built to cancel the other, and so when you have control of both, they can easily become as least twice as useful as the normally would when used correctly. As for the spider super, Mordax, you always claim that it sucks, saying it is easy to run away from. However, I think you forget about the fact that the Mantis is able to do whatever it feels like for most of the duration of the super, which makes running away to be a non-option. Running=no block. Spiders=no block. Acid spit means Mantis can attack from afar, whether or not the spiders hit. If the spider super is thrown on top of a fallen HAR, that HAR has nearly zero chance of escaping the spiders, unless it is a Katana. The fly swarm has one main use, adding more hits to a combo, and preventing that HAR from evading directly after. I wouldn't call it a great super, but it certainly has its uses. As for the charging problem mentioned, this is a problem for all throwables, and projectiles to an extent. It is not unique to Mantis, so should not be considered a Mantis specific weakness. I can elaborate more if you like, but I think you can see what I mean.

Auto targeting thrusting moves. This would go well in the anti-blocking paragraph as well, but I ended up talking about projectiles instead. I don't understand how auto-targeting attacks miss in lag as Ouch said. I would think that auto targeting attacks auto target on both server and client, lag shouldn't affect them at all. It is just like the auto-targeting evades, I have never known an evade not turn appropriately to my target, no matter how much lag I've had. The problem with auto targeting is the fact that sometimes targets change when you don't want them to, not lag. If an auto targeting attack misses apparently due to lag, it is because the other player was actually someplace else at the time you performed the attack, and so misses as any other attack would. Auto targetting attacks are a great advantage, IMO, because they negate lag (when you are not accustomed to lag), they'll hit in a lot of cases where your opponent evades (happened to me countless times), and you no longer have to depend on aiming yourself precisely. There have been countless times where I evaded one of Ouch's attacks, just to have him already attacking me using one of the auto targetting attacks before my HAR has had a chance to fully recover. Mantis' are the only HARs that have been able to do that so easily to me, outside of jag leaps, but then, jags can't combo out of the leap.

Mantis has awesome side attacks as well, bar none. The bombs come out almost instantaneously, and once they are out, there is no stopping them. All other side attacks you have a chance of outprioritizing with another attack. Try to do the same with Mantis, however, and you will get hit with the bombs, whether or not you also hit the Mantis. You have to either stay wide clear of them, or block them. Countering them is difficult, because you see the Mantis arm go out and so expect the attack to happen at the same time, but the bombs actually come out a moment or two later. I am caught all the time trying to swoop down with an air attack from the side, and think I'm free and clear until the bombs remind me that moment or two after thinking I'm safe. Or trying to sneak in a quick ground attack after seeing the Mantis arm retract, only to be smacked by them darn bombs again. Then, as mentioned, Mantis is capable of comboing out of that attack, making it that much worse. This is probably due to the delay between the actual attack and the appearance of the attack, as the Mantis is nearly back into attack position by the time the bombs explode.

So anyways, it isn't any one thing that the Mantis has that I think makes it overpowered, it is the combination of several things. Sure, Mantis isn't all about overpowered moves, he does have some weak, even dangerous ones (anyone ever try evading from a Mantis throw? >Smile) but I don't think they set the Mantis on par with the other HARs. That's about all I got for now, it's a big enough post anyways. Smile
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veryorkish



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

You talk too much but I think I'll agree with you anyway.
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Socrates



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

holy [filtered] thats a long post.
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Discomb



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

I think everyone is forgetting that in either Demolition of LMS it is near impossible not to get hit. Someone will always be aiming something at you. Mantis loses a lot of his combos and health this way.

And TUF, showing your e-penis in a detailed discussion is along the lines of "my mommy could beat your mommy up". At least the other side is providing constructive arguments for their points, not attacking you with unwitty retorts.
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Lurker



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

NS, very thourough and well thought out...

very good review
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Vuen



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

*Cries* I don't want to get into another balance discussion again. There's really no point.

I will say that words like 'overpowered' and 'unbalanced' in their traditional meaning in fighting games don't nearly do justice to how much more potential Mantis has over the other buts. However, while very uncharacteristic of me, I'm not even going to try to back up my arguments! That's right, this is your one chance to point at me and go "HA, you've proven nothing!" and subsequently ignore my argument entirely.

However, I will say this:

Quote:
First, a couple of questions for Cloud: Have you ever played against Ouch's Mantis, and have you ever played with decent ping or as the host?


I may not have played ouch in a while, but last I've played him, there are many Mantis players such as Player that are far, far better than ouch. Most Mantis players barely scratch the surface of Mantis' potential; they're half way up the hill and they can't see the top, so they've planted their flag and said "we're there".
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:19 am    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

Quote:
Most of my Mantis experience comes from fighting Ouch over the last few months


Meaning that you havnt actualy seen just how some of the stuff Ouch does works, you dont know the HAR, you know the results of playing it, but you dont know how it works, yeh, the stuff ouch can do is possible, but the stuff Epiphany does with his Katana is also possible, and I dont see anyone going around and calling that overpowered, just because Epiphany is good at it

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And of course, I always fight him with my Force


So in fact you only know how Mantis matches up with Force, try fighting Katana with Mantis, its HARD

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Every decent Mantis I remember ever fighting has always required a lot more attention from me to stand a chance than fighting any other HAR


I could say the same about Katana, I just suck against it, but I think most people would agree that no matter how annoying I personaly find Katana, it is not overpowered

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Mantis seems to have a much more effective counter for whatever I throw at it than it at me.


But your basing this almost soely of Ouch, maybe Ouch is just good at counters

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I blame this on several unique aspects of the Mantis:


Lets take these one by one

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speed


There are faster HARs than Mantis, Katana is one of them, and I find that Jag and Chronos respond much better to a High Agility

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move recognition difficulty


If moves start so similar that you cant recognise them then you can probably evade them in exactly the same way

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thrusting moves


Yes, lots of move take him forward a little, this gives him an advantage when he attacks from the front, but he needs advantages to cancel out his weaknesses

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auto targeting thrusting moves


I dislike Auto-Target, if it switches your going the wrong way, and with a thrusting move this would leave you with a cooldown beside your opponent, incomming punishment

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ability to force me out of blocking


All you have to do is change your tactics, blocking doesnt work so well against Mantis, fine, Air Evades dont work too well against Force, you just have to change your tactics to fit the HARs your fighting

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the mix of throwables and projectiles


I'll come on to this when you go into more detail later

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and incredible side attacks


Again, I'll come on to these when you talk about them more

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The problem is the mix of these, they each complement each other a little bit too well


They do compliment each other well, thats the point, but a lot of them are risky and he still has a lot of downsides to him

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I have a very hard time seeing the differences in Mantis' moves, which makes it very hard for me to be able to react before it is too late.


The slides start the same, thus they can be evaded the same, but I dont see which of his other moves start the same

Quote:

Speed naturally plays a part in this, because the longer it took to complete each move, the more time I have to react. Plus, most of these are thrusting moves, I'm not "safe" at a HAR length away, as I am with most other HARs. Oh yeah, and these moves tend to have slightly different timing


So dont aim to be away, aim to be at the side and facing him so that he is infront of he when his move finishes
I really dont want to have to spoon-feed you people anti-mantis tactics because you cant be bothered to figure them out yourself, but if thats what it takes I'll do it

Quote:

requiring counter to be activated at different times.


Dont counter then, do something else
I used to be convinced that counter was the best way to stop Chronoses back teleport and Katanas spins, but it never worked so I moved on to evades, its called developing tactics

I remember when the game first came out everyone said Chronos was overpowered because of his back-teleport, but everyone found the right way to beat it early and they stopped, other things just take a little more working out is all

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An example of these 3 together are the normal front attack slides, and the slide that goes around to attack my back. I can't figure out how to see the difference in these 2 attacks until the front one is blocked/successful, or the rear one is behind me. The front slide seems like it reaches an impossible distance, in near instantaneous times, so if I wasn't already blocking, it's too late


Either:
Right->Right->Jump
or:
Left->Left->Jump
or:
Forward->Forward->Jump

works on all 3, garunteed, now why couldnt you find that yourself?

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The rear slide just barely provides me enough time to evade to the side after I notice it is a rear slide


So do it before hand

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which makes countering these 2 a gamble


So dont Counter, change your tactic, you all did it for Chronos back teleport

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Mantis' ability to force me out of blocking has no equal, not even Warlord, or an evade happy Jag (although one of those is awfully close).


Hurrah, and advantage to Mantis to counter his sucky super moves and other risky stuff

Quote:

As I said in the last paragraph, jumping is a potential tactic vs. Mantis slides. However, blocking in mid-air is non existant.


And how does that relate to slides? he has cooldown on those, and if your already in the air theres no way hes gonna jump up and catch you

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Then, there are the Mantis spiders, or even the flies. Mantis bugs are completely unblockable


The spiders can be outrun, or countered, and the flies can be countered and take so long to charge up its not even funny

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and have a decent amount of speed (see, speed again)


No they dont, the spiders are slow as heck and the flies need to be charged in the hand for at least 10 seconds before they do anything useful

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The only ways I know of to defeat a spider is to either outrun it, or to jump directly over it


Counter

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A popular tactic is for Mantis to drop one or two spiders at his feet as I approach


If you cant see that hes spawning spiders with enough time to change your tactic you need to see a doctor

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forcing me to: a. run away - leaves back exposed to acid spit and then Mantis sits at your fallen HAR a moment later


When you see him spawning spiders the thing you need to do is to slowly back away until you know what hes doing, if he throws the spider you can crouch and pick it up providing our out of slide range, or counter it, if he drops them in front then acid spit isnt going to do anything because your already in the block position, if you really are that close you can counter the spiders to get close to him, if you find yourself infront of 2 inactive spiders start sidestepping around them, not rolling, sidestepping

Quote:

or b. jump directly over the spider(s) right to the Mantis - most effective while Mantis is recovering, otherwise, hope you use an air attack with more priority/thrust than his, because you can't block in mid-air


Dont do that then, follow the advice above

Quote:

Another tactic is for the Mantis to throw a spider/fly or 2 or mixed behind you, although this is most used after they have had time to charge up.


Note the last bit

The flies take FAR too long to charge up, the spiders dont but they are easy to counter

Why do you think they have the laser infront of them? its so you can see them comming from behind you and counter

Quote:

You then have a Mantis in front of you that will try to either get you while you aren't blocking, or keep you block-locked as long as possible (speed, anti-counter) while the bug gets you from behind.


I use this tactic a lot with single spiders, its good but its very risky because if you do escape its likely that the mantis will be hit by its own spiders, I havnt quite figured out how people escape from it but I have seen them do it so I know its possible

This is the very nature of fighting game balance, tactic and counter-tactic, if you can make a counter-tactic it is no longer overpowred, and there IS a counter-tactic out there for this

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First of all, acid spit appears to be exactly like a homing CC, except much less damage, and slightly slower


Good balance I'd say

Quote:

Secondly, Mantis spiders are awesome (as talked about above)


Yup, we like them

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and the flies have their uses


Very, Very, Very few

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Projectiles are meant for long distance attacking, and meant to be direct with a great deal of speed. Throwables are meant for shorter range, with awesome homing capabilities and much more potential for "trapping" as above for combos or whatever.


On the contrary, both Force and Chronos have throwables that can be used as projectiles, they can spawn Bombs/TACs and throw them in a way that they travel a long distance in a straght line and explode as they go past someone

Mantis cannot do such a thing with either of his throwables, so he needs the Acid spit to compensate, and to stop being overpowered the Acid Spit is mades weaker and slower than other projectiles of its type

Quote:

So, when they are kept separate, they balance each other out quite nicely, and neither is naturally overpowering over the other. However, mix them together into one HAR, and you get the best of both worlds, and become a god of projectile wars


There are 2 HARs that own at a distance, Warlord and Jaguar

Jag because he has an instant hit move, you cant predict when its gonna go off so you just have to keep evading randomly, and Warlord because of his Missiles

Mantis doesnt hold a candle to either of them at a distance, because all he has thats effective at that range is his Acid-Spit

The Spiders dont work at a distance, you can get them there, but its much harder to aim them so that the target doesnt have a chance to react than it is with a proper projectile

Everything Mantis does with his spiders has a counter-tactic

Quote:

They are built to cancel the other, and so when you have control of both, they can easily become as least twice as useful as the normally would when used correctly.


I have never found a tactic that uses both Acid Spit and Spiders, so this point is completely false

Quote:
As for the spider super, Mordax, you always claim that it sucks, saying it is easy to run away from. However, I think you forget about the fact that the Mantis is able to do whatever it feels like for most of the duration of the super, which makes running away to be a non-option. Running=no block. Spiders=no block. Acid spit means Mantis can attack from afar, whether or not the spiders hit


Oh wow, so Super spiders is a free hit on an Acid-Spit, wow what a glorious use for a super bar, it sure does merit the use of the word Super

Chasing after the target doesnt work either because your likely just to end up behind them and in the middle of your own spiders when they explode

Quote:

If the spider super is thrown on top of a fallen HAR, that HAR has nearly zero chance of escaping the spiders, unless it is a Katana


If Super Fireball lands on top of you then you have no chance of escaping
everyone loves super fireball

And Chronos can also escape because of his counter

Quote:

The fly swarm has one main use, adding more hits to a combo, and preventing that HAR from evading directly after. I wouldn't call it a great super, but it certainly has its uses


It does yes, I never said it didnt, I just said that it didnt have nearly as many as most other supers do, I will sumbit that stuff like Super Freeze has even less uses, but that fact doesnt make THIS super any better

Quote:

As for the charging problem mentioned, this is a problem for all throwables, and projectiles to an extent


Chronos doesnt have to charge any of his projectiles, Forces gravity vortexes are still useful without charging, the flies ARENT

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I can elaborate more if you like, but I think you can see what I mean.


You're not under the perception that all throwables require charging to work at all are you?

Quote:

Auto targeting thrusting moves. This would go well in the anti-blocking paragraph as well, but I ended up talking about projectiles instead. I don't understand how auto-targeting attacks miss in lag as Ouch said.


Because in lag the Auto-Targeter thinks the target is somewhere it isnt and it goes in the wrong direction
but its the changing targets that is the real problem

Quote:

The problem with auto targeting is the fact that sometimes targets change when you don't want them to, not lag.


Yep

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If an auto targeting attack misses apparently due to lag, it is because the other player was actually someplace else at the time you performed the attack, and so misses as any other attack would.


Apparently the auto-targeter has more of a problem with this than most things, but it isnt something I've experianced personaly

Quote:

Auto targetting attacks are a great advantage, IMO, because they negate lag (when you are not accustomed to lag), they'll hit in a lot of cases where your opponent evades (happened to me countless times)


Actualy all of Mantis' good evade catchers are ones that dont auto-target

Quote:

and you no longer have to depend on aiming yourself precisely. There have been countless times where I evaded one of Ouch's attacks, just to have him already attacking me using one of the auto targetting attacks before my HAR has had a chance to fully recover


Then you didnt evade in the right direction

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Mantis' are the only HARs that have been able to do that so easily to me, outside of jag leaps


Not a Mantis Specific strength then is it

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but then, jags can't combo out of the leap.


They dont, but they can use it to set up beneficial circumstances

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Mantis has awesome side attacks as well, bar none


This was my favorite bit of you little rant, watch this:

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The bombs come out almost instantaneously


Quote:

but the bombs actually come out a moment or two later


Which are we going with here?

Either they happen instantly or they dont, they cant be both instant and delayed

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I am caught all the time trying to swoop down with an air attack from the side, and think I'm free and clear until the bombs remind me that moment or two after thinking I'm safe.


Then dont swoop down to the sides, I know thats where all of forces long combos start from, but maybe another tactic other than long combos is needed for Mantis, maybe thats why everyone hates him

Cant show off your uber combos?

Quote:

Or trying to sneak in a quick ground attack after seeing the Mantis arm retract, only to be smacked by them darn bombs again.


Its a delayed attack, you KNOW its a delayed attack, so theres no excuse for this, you should learn the timing on it and get it right

Just because certain HARs require different tactics to beat does NOT make them overpowered

Quote:

Then, as mentioned, Mantis is capable of comboing out of that attack, making it that much worse.


Its a lot more difficult to combo to the side than you think, out of a side attack or otherwise

Quote:

This is probably due to the delay between the actual attack and the appearance of the attack, as the Mantis is nearly back into attack position by the time the bombs explode.


Meaning that he can hit you with another attack that hits to the side before you reach the ground, theres no way theres enough time to turn in there, and as many of Mantises attacks advance him this means that only short combos are possible like that
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MAD_DAN



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:34 am    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

Wow that's a new record Very Happy

I wanted to say about Mantis' side attacks, they're extremely powerful and useful, they never miss and 100% hit someone who you RP'ed and evaded on either of your sides, and they hit even after that someone planted one on you. You have time to recover while they are still in the air from the blast, and continue with a f.LK RK f.RK .. and then your choice, unevadable, and so on. I'd say that's the most "overpowered" , to use the term, move in Mantis.

However, if there's one bot that owns Mantis imho, is Chronos. Mantis is so easily freazable, you can't miss. A good to expert Chronos player i don't think would have a hard time against Mantis since he can freeze it constantly. Anyone who tested this knows what i'm talking about.
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Cloudagain



Joined: 08 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:49 am    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

Quote:

I am caught all the time trying to swoop down with an air attack from the side, and think I'm free and clear until the bombs remind me that moment or two after thinking I'm safe.


Then dont swoop down to the sides, I know thats where all of forces long combos start from, but maybe another tactic other than long combos is needed for Mantis, maybe thats why everyone hates him

Cant show off your uber combos?



There thats it, Now i understand why everyone thinks mantis is overpowered. They want to do excessive combos on him and think its unfair that he can do combos on them.

I've said this a few times already but i'll lay it all out nice and simply.
1. - Mantis has PITIFUL hit strength meaning he needs massive combos to do any real damage.
2. - Mantis has PITIFUL armour so when he gets hit he really gets hit.
3. - Mantis needs supers to mix into his combos to get nice hit counts (and thus do real damage) but they are unreliable
4. - Mantis needs supers to mix into his combos to get nice hit counts (and thus do real damage) so he needs focus.
5. - Mantis needs Focus to do damage in his combos, Agil to do his combos, Power to hurt with his combos, and endurance to live for more than 5 seconds. (No other har i've seen needs all 4 stats as much as mantis) Also these stats are primarly only useful to mantis when over 3/4 so you can only pick 2 for your mantis.
6. Power+Agil mantis' have little energy for supers so when they fail its devastating AND they go down FAST!
7. Power+Focus Mantis' Lose their rk and lk slides because they are so pitifully slow they give people about an hour to react. AND they go down FAST!
8. Agil+Focus Mantis' Lose their damage per hit AND they go down FAST!
9. Nobody really picks a pilot with high endurance that i've seen so its not nescesary to mention although i'm sure you could work it out if nescesary.

Some people here go on and on about how mantis' little strenghts all add up. Try adding up just 2 of his weaknesses.

Move cooldown - Not all of his moves admitedly but some have horrific cooldown (a.rk, a.lk(blocked), Slides if they miss, lp(to a lesser extent but if u do 2 in a row the gap between is quite high)
+
Low armour - Fight my pyros (I say my pyros because i tend towards Ciaran who has high power) in a mantis and try a slide, i'll happily sidestep then fling you skyward.



Also what on earth makes people think that mantis is a good air catcher for. You people are just evading too quickly. If you let mantis get one or 2 hits past the point where u can evade u can evade with ease taking only 10 pts of extra damage. The only part of a mantis combo that catches well is LK - (you evade) - A.lk (misses but targets) - A.rk (hits)
Compare that to Pyros A.rp which catches and targets on its own, I fought some guy online on his own server who just didnt get what i was doing. I did Lk - A.lp - A.rp - A.lp - A.rp until he was stunned he evaded nicely everytime and got nailed by the a-rp Mantis has nothing as useful as that.
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Socrates



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:59 am    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

Between his blocklock, spiders, and priority normals, Mantis can force mistakes better than any bot in the game.

The best character in any fighting game will be the one that does best whatever the figthing system rewards most.

A game taht rewards mobility over all else, the mobile characters will be the best. Games that reward turtling over all else, the character with best defense will be the best.

So while some of your "points" may be true, theyd only matter if they happen to be the things that are most important in the game.

Hint: theyre not.
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Socrates



Joined: 11 May 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:13 am    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

and as a side note, that post mordax made quoting every single thing one at a time in nightshadows already way long post was the most ridiculous thing ive ever seen on a forum. lol. (not ridiculous in content, i didnt read it. i mean ridiculous in length)
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:17 am    Post subject: Re: Why is mantis overpowered??? Reply with quote

And dax super freeze has endless uses. It is a fragment machine! Sure avoidable by simply jumping, but nonetheless it is not a cakewalk for the one being hit, since Chronos, even on a failing super freeze, can use the targeting a.fLK as he is coming down.
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