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Balancing OMF 2097
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Hawkman



Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robyrt: I'm not sure if Shadow is as bad as you say, but I've killed people with his f+K infinite. And it's easier than other infinites, say Electra's jab one...

It should be considered a factor, IMO...
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raptor
Ancient One


Joined: 02 Sep 1999
Posts: 4511
Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooohh! Interesting.

Technically put, the reason why shadow is so weak, is that without hes infinite spam, he have absolutelly nothing to offer. I've played him several times in multiplayer (both with and against) and Shadow quite simply suffers from beeing to easy to hit, and having next to no ways of avoiding it. Most moves exspose him to much, and even casual retributions will nail him back.

He needs some redo, for one thing he needs to get a defensive move.
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Hawkman



Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't know. I think Flail might be worse...Flail has no anti-airs, while Shadow has b+K and shadow punch at least. I think you might fix this bot by removing some frames from his shadow moves in which the shadows can be hit by the opponent. This would make shadow dive, punch and slide not so vulnerable...

Flail's swinging chains and b+K just can't work as anti-airs. In fact I think that's why Garg's diving claw AND jumpkick and Jag's overhead throw own Flail so much.

but neither can I figure how to balance effectively this game without reanimating some moves. Garg for example needs a longer jab badly, and as I said, Flail needs an actual anti-air, etc...

What would be a good defensive move?
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Rising Talon into Wing Charge into Diving Claw whore, supreme ruler of the air.

"if you find yourself stuck in any problem, just charge your way out of it"
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veryorkish



Joined: 23 May 2003
Posts: 3196
Location: Here!....Wait, no! There!

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

keep in mind its been years since I've played but iirc f-f-k works as an anti air for flail.
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raptor
Ancient One


Joined: 02 Sep 1999
Posts: 4511
Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flails chain throw can be used at times, but the times I've tried it, it is a bit to unpredictable. Do note I'm not very good with flailm and never have been. Generally found hes best anti air to be DFK/DK fairly quick and good hit area on top, while crounching makes it decent against most things (and one of flail's better moves in general since it is also quite fast).

Shadows BK is fairly weak as air defense goes, I'd rather block and retaliate with something fast. Shadow punch, once again I find to unreliable to make work.

Gargoyle doesn't need anything at all. It's allready the best robot in the game hands down.

when saying "A good defensive move" I generally refer to some way of getting out of trouble. For example a special move that would get shadow out of harms way. In the hacked shadow that vulture made, he added a move that instantlly jumped the shadow backward (like a normal jump backward, just a bit faster) and releasing 2 shadow dives hitting at about same place he stood and the other one in the air right above hes head. This move let him get away, and do a minor retaliate (with little to no way of comboing from mind you). Annother option would be to leave a shadow (that does not take damage and does nothing but stay there), and appear somewhere else further away.

The alternative is to simply tune up he existing moves and make them more usefull (aka more difficult to retaliate on, some a bit faster etc). But generally speaking, hes speicla moves needs an overtune anyways, at the moment only slide is usefull for anything at all (save grab infinite).

Shadow is a weird bot.
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Robyrt



Joined: 09 Sep 1999
Posts: 7606
Location: Virginia, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like Shadow, Flail is a one-trick pony. Where Shadow's goal is to stun you so they can start the infinite, Flail's goal is to knock you into the wall so they can start tick throwing you with jump punch -> spinning throw. (Try it; some characters just can't get out of the loop without trying to fake Flail out.)

Flail's two key weaknesses are lack of animation frames and long recovery times. He can't do any real combos, and even his two anti-air moves (df+K and jumpkick) are dicey.
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Hawkman



Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw, is there any program that lets me work with sprites from a decompiled AF file? I mean if it converts the sprites to actual image files (like PCX, TGA or whatever) and viceversa. I'm thinking of editing some bots a little...
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raptor
Ancient One


Joined: 02 Sep 1999
Posts: 4511
Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Hawkman: If you are interested in editing the frames, look up on Vagabond's work. He is curentlly in the working of an AF editor program, still in the building phases, but works for some things, and he likes feedback.

you can find the main thread about it on the omf2097 forums, letsee, digging link.... There! : http://www.omf2097.com/~forum/viewthread.php?tid=433
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Hawkman



Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oww, crap. This's gonna take me a while... installing Ruby and all

btw I tested vulture's modified Shadow, and that double shadow dive thingie isn't really that good.

Thanks very much, anyway.
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"if you find yourself stuck in any problem, just charge your way out of it"
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raptor
Ancient One


Joined: 02 Sep 1999
Posts: 4511
Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The double shadow backflip is good for what it is intended to do. Quickly get you out of harms way, and keep the enemy at bay for the same time.

It is absolutelly useless compared to the other moves (since all the other moves is friggin crazy overpowered, like instant teleport! And the 5-6 air sliding shadows etc). After all, a defensive move is not supposed to be "perfect", that would make it a no brainer, and impossible for anyone else to beat a shadow. It only needs a decent defence/way out, and the move does just that.
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