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Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate
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Endy



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 4079
Location: Lost within my own thoughts.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd probably leave Chronos alone in the 3rd tier, and put Katana in a new 4th tier.


Signed. Some chronos players are very good and chronos has a few moves that can be abused whereas katana has almost nothing except for rolling blade > rising blade.

There was still a few good katana plaers though. Epiphany and Meo pulled it off.

Warlord is definitley top tier though.
Way too many unblockable attacks make him as agressive as mantis. His ability to force openings is extremely high.

I would also argue that gargoyle is middle tier because his high damage is offset by a difficulty in actually starting combos. Gargoyle is more like jaguar than he is like mantis. Lots of damage potential but needs obvious openings whereas mantis has low damage potential and forces openings with spam.

Best:
Warlord
Mantis

Both have the ability to force openings rather than wait for the opponent to make a mistake to attack. Both capable of high damage (though warlord does it with short powerful combos and mantis does it with long and unevadable combos).

Average:
Pyros
Gargoyle
Force
Jaguar

Rely on openings to attack. All capable of high damage. Pyros and Garg are slightly better than Force and Jaguar (Pyros because of his armor and gargoyle because he can fly) but not in a significantly unbalancing way.

Below Average:
Chronos

Has 2 combo starters but lacks ability to pour on damage when opponet makes mistakes. Low armor sals this HARs fate. He can't kill them fast, and he cand hold up under fire.

Unfinished:
Katana

Low Damage + Low Armor + Poor Combo Starters = [filtered] were they thinking?
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Wastelander5



Joined: 16 Oct 2005
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

Whilst the tier list is generally acceptable, there are plenty of exceptions with players. Me, for instance, am highly skilled with Jaguar. The choice of pilots can be overlooked also.

Back on topic... I'd say move on to a different event, or attempt new strategies. Or just tune the difficulty down.

And yes, I was playing against real players today, despite the lack of said quantity. It was my first time online. Very Happy
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Vuen



Joined: 31 Aug 1999
Posts: 4968
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

Quote:
It was my first time online. Very Happy
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 4262
Location: Beijing, China

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:29 am    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
It was my first time online. Very Happy


OMG Vuen fought you? Vuen still plays??? I gotta fire the game up ASAP.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:50 am    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

Endy, you couldn't be much more wrong. Gargoyle has LP, which makes him the best HAR in the game. (yes, just that 1 move is all he needs for it) The deal with gargoyle is this. He has 0 bad match ups in the game, not even one, no force is not a bad match-up for gargoyle, he really hardly depends on being in air.

Lets say it's like this:
Garvoyle vs Mantis: Gargoyle advantage + 1.5
Gargoyle vs Pyros: Gargoyle advantage + 0.5
Gargoyle vs Warlord: Gargoyle advantage + 2
Gargoyle vs Jaguar: Gargoyle advantage + 0.5
Gargoyle vs Force: Gargoyle advantage + 0.5
Gargoyle vs Chronos: Gargoyle advantage + 2
Gargoyle vs Katana: Gargoyle advantage + 2.5

Now the advantage he gets to most HARs is pretty slim, unlike mantis' getting advantages against pyros' of +3.5 or so, but the fact that Gargoyle simply has no match ups where a player of his skill in another HAR would beat him sets gargoyle on top.

(He's probally go bottom of middle tier if he didnt have his LP though)
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 4262
Location: Beijing, China

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:00 am    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

I'd have to agree with that. LP is quite the killer. The only move that competes is Warlord's LP.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:05 am    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

It beats warlords LP easily, highest priority, immense range, high damage, no cooldown, no warmup. Sure it may not have the 360 degrees aspect, but any decent fighter hardly needs that aspect anyway.
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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Location: Beijing, China

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

The range is longer then the animation suggests but still shorter then warlord's LP range IMO.
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FlamingMonkey



Joined: 30 Jul 2002
Posts: 8397

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

Warlord's LP has weaknesses. Gargoyle's LP doesn't. It also lacks the weakness of having a hitbox that matches its animation.
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 4262
Location: Beijing, China

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

But Warlord can't be approached from behind in massive fights, and his LP racks up demolition points like a... something indescribable.
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FlamingMonkey



Joined: 30 Jul 2002
Posts: 8397

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

That's nice. In a real LMS fight, though, people actually value their lives enough not to be so reckless and have the time to be more cautious. So Warlord can attack from behind. It's a nice perk for a slow [filtered].
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:33 am    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

Quote:
But Warlord can't be approached from behind in massive fights, and his LP racks up demolition points like a... something indescribable.


Gargoyle has his side screams that defend from attacks from behind.
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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Location: Beijing, China

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:52 am    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

With warmup, not to mention a harder and longer to press key combo.
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TheUnknownFactor



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 13825
Location: Netherlands, Drenthe, Assen

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

what warm up? what harder to press? You press side and your press punch, doesn't get much easier. Oh, i was refering to his side attack, which equal sidescream - warm up - cooldown.
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Discomb



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 4262
Location: Beijing, China

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: Ultimate Warrior - Aggressive Debate Reply with quote

oh those. Well yea they have back range but we were discussing LP vs LP not HAR vs HAR. I still think Warlord's is more godly then Gargoyle's but whatever.
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