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Balancing OMF 2097
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Robyrt



Joined: 09 Sep 1999
Posts: 7606
Location: Virginia, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:24 pm    Post subject: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

This, of course, assumes that we will one day be able, through access to the source code, to tweak things a little. What I'm aiming for is an SF2 Turbo kind of rebalance, where you don't have to draw any new animation frames, but it can be a totally different game.

Jag: Add knockdown on b+K, extend hitting frames of db+P later.
Shadow: Remove warmup from Shadow Kick/Punch, speed up warmup of Shadow Dive, increase cooldown on Shadow Kick, change type of specials from projectile to physical, change command of Ice Freeze to qcf+P.
Thorn: ??? I'm open to suggestions.
Pyros: Increase speed of Fire Spin's entire animation, increase speed of all flame attacks.
Electra: Decrease speed of db+P, extend hitbox of b+P.
Katana: Lengthen cancelable window of Razor Spin into jump attacks, remove invincibility from last hit of Rising Blades.
Shredder: Change type of Flying Hands from projectile to physical.
Flail: Increase speed of kick attacks (except specials), increase range of sweep, make Charging Punches scoot slightly backwards when blocked.
Garg: Remove invincibility from Rising Talon, add pushback when hit and decrease damage of Wing Charges, decrease movement speed of Diving Claw.
Chronos: Reduce damage of b+K, decrease speed of slide kick.
Nova: Increase hit stun of db+P, add knockdown to b+K, decrease startup of Grenade and air missile.
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GodzukiTest



Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Philadelphia, PA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

i think all the bots and their moves function perfectly, its the AI's stupidity toward these moves is what needs fixin

*spits in a can while seeing a boxcar ride by with little billy down the street steering uncontrollably into a trash can*
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aokmaniac13



Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 146
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

You can always use mugen :smirk:
(Still working on getting my bots off of crack, don't worry.)
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Socrates



Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 3803
Location: <3

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

You dont "balance" classics no matter how bad they need it, or noone likes them anymore, everyone knows that. you dont see any balance patches for warcraft II do you??
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Cloudagain



Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:18 am    Post subject: Re: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

Robyrt:
Shadow: Ice is designed to encompas shadowpunch because if you could repeat it Shadow would have ANOTHER infinite lol.
Thorn: Remove invulnerablilty of Speed kick (or at least extended ver) Decrease cooldown of Wall Kick

Otherwise I agree with your suggestions ^_^

How can warcraft II need balancing? the units on both sides are identical except in looks and the spells are only different enough to change the flavour of each side. Like adding a sugar to your tea.
Starcraft is a classic and they balanced that for years, some building costs were changed by up to 33.3 %
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GodzukiTest



Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Philadelphia, PA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

i got a question, in 2097 i occasionly do a move with my jaguar that leaves all these cool shadows behind him and im like "lolwtf that was awesome like omg" but i cant seem to do this move every time...any tips? oh yeah i beat all unranked challenegers and fire and ice.
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raptor
Ancient One


Joined: 02 Sep 1999
Posts: 4508
Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

Building on what Robyrt mentioned earlier in hes post that this requires this mystical fable beeing known as "source code" from the mysterious entity often refered to as Rob Elam. you could make a new version with both the original unmodified version, and an "enhanced" version where we could have tried to balance things a bit more.

All granted, i dont have many opinions regarding balancing. I never really had enough experience with fighters in general to know how to balance one.
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Robyrt



Joined: 09 Sep 1999
Posts: 7606
Location: Virginia, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

Quote:
You dont "balance" classics no matter how bad they need it, or noone likes them anymore, everyone knows that. you dont see any balance patches for warcraft II do you??

Besides the above reason (that a warcraft 2 rebalance would have to rework the spell code, and thus is more trouble than it's worth), lots of old games, particularly RTSes, get balance patches. Starcraft and Total Annihilation went through years-long balances, and even Virtua Fighter 2 was replaced with Virtua Fighter 2.1 in the arcades. There's definitely precedent.

Quote:
i got a question, in 2097 i occasionly do a move with my jaguar that leaves all these cool shadows behind him and im like "lolwtf that was awesome like omg" but i cant seem to do this move every time...any tips? oh yeah i beat all unranked challenegers and fire and ice.


That's the Shadow Jag Leap, and even I can't do it every time on the keyboard. The command is hcf+P, or more fully, down-back, down, down-forward, forward + punch. (Same motion as Ryu's red fireball in Street Fighter.) That same motion will also get you Katana's Shadow Rising Blade, Shredder's Shadow Headbutt, or Thorn's Shadow Speed Kick.

Quote:
Building on what Robyrt mentioned earlier in hes post that this requires this mystical fable beeing known as "source code" from the mysterious entity often refered to as Rob Elam. you could make a new version with both the original unmodified version, and an "enhanced" version where we could have tried to balance things a bit more.


That actually wouldn't require much effort, and is a good idea: you'd just tweak OMF.EXE to have an extra line of text (no image manipulation needed), which would run a very simple BAT file that switches around all the AF files to their rebalanced versions and then runs OMF.
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raptor
Ancient One


Joined: 02 Sep 1999
Posts: 4508
Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

Shadow Jaguar Leap ?

B-DB-D-DF-F+P

or more popularly known as half circle from back, to down and to forward, punch.

With the enhancement for jaguar in tournament mode, this can be canceled into a air-kick. If standing close when executing this move, you can get 3 hit combo with this and the hit alone.
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Cloudagain



Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

The extended Jaguar leap, Half roll from back to forward The trick with the half roll moves is to avoid pressing back+down+forward at the same time as that breaks the roll.
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Anonymous
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

Quote:
Starcraft and Total Annihilation went through years-long balances


they were new when they were first patchable tho. changign a classic game just seems morally wrong to me =P. as a better example, would anyone wanna play a revision of ST? I dont think so. cool thread tho. im just being an [filtered] cause i can =)

Quote:
i got a question, in 2097 i occasionly do a move with my jaguar that leaves all these cool shadows behind him and im like "lolwtf that was awesome like omg" but i cant seem to do this move every time...any tips? oh yeah i beat all unranked challenegers and fire and ice.


Wow, you know how to get to fire and ice, but dont know how to do a shadow move? You're such a liar. Stop faking.
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GodzukiTest



Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Philadelphia, PA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

Quote:
Shadow Jaguar Leap ?

B-DB-D-DF-F+P

or more popularly known as half circle from back, to down and to forward, punch.

With the enhancement for jaguar in tournament mode, this can be canceled into a air-kick. If standing close when executing this move, you can get 3 hit combo with this and the hit alone.


yeah it looks so easy but for some reason i cant make a smoot trnasition from the back key to the bottom.
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Socrates



Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 3803
Location: <3

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:02 am    Post subject: Re: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

Quote:

yeah it looks so easy but for some reason i cant make a smoot trnasition from the back key to the bottom.


its cause you use keyboard.
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raptor
Ancient One


Joined: 02 Sep 1999
Posts: 4508
Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

I can do it with about 80% ccurac on keyboard, about 10% on gamepad.
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Robyrt



Joined: 09 Sep 1999
Posts: 7606
Location: Virginia, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Balancing OMF 2097 Reply with quote

Good point - they DID release a rebalance of ST, it's called the Anniversary Edition, and it's just not as cool, because they didn't go all the way with it. They let you keep stored charge moves, but not Vega's flipkick - they let you keep CE Bison's stunlocks, but not O.Sagat's fireballs - etc.

You could call this "OMF 2100" if you wanted. :p
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