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So... anyone paying attention to Guild Wars 2 ?
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raptor
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: So... anyone paying attention to Guild Wars 2 ? Reply with quote

Well, there used to be allot of Guild Wars 1 players here back in the day, and I figured it would be interesting to listen to OMF'ers opinions about a game as radical such as this.

First off I'll start by saying that I got very late into Guild Wars 1 myself, picking it up a couple of years ago when gamestop was selling of a humongous batch of collectors edition for next to nothing (100 nok = 15usd, and it was 3 for 2). And it's much lamented features of instanced world instead of persistent MMO basically made the game a winner for me, since I could enjoy it like a singleplayer game. This was basically what Neverwinter Nights 1 was supposed to be (Last pc game and rpg game I ever was hyped for btw).

Couple of quick links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_wars_2

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=440171

The wiki is the very very short version, and from the look of things, gets a few things wrong. The NeoGAF link is a user trying to collect all the current information known, and updating the original posts to gather info in one place. A very long, but also very informative read.

The reason I am so interested in this game, is because of the huge amount of work ArenaNet is putting into changing things up, trying to find new and better ways of doing things, and how to remove as many of the old annoyances and useless mechanics that served no purpose other than grief, as possible. Like grinding, leveling, being forced into roles, and a whole bunch of other things.

If you want some examples of what fascinates me, then take a look at the "Dynamic Events", the removal of the "Holy Trinity" tradition from other mmo games, and just how much they try to get rid of the "grind" and rather want you to enjoy the game from start to end instead of having to grind to have fun later.

This game, even if it manages to hold up to just half of what it promises, is going to do quite a few things to how I view rpg games forward.

Also, to uphold an old tradition by now: Yes! GW2 have a jump button!
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Raven



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to, but OMFBG and Duke Nukem Forever kind of taught me that once a game becomes vaporware it's better to just move on...
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takuban



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven wrote:
I used to, but OMFBG and Duke Nukem Forever kind of taught me that once a game becomes vaporware it's better to just move on...

OMF:BG was released. It therefore can't be vaporware. Even Duke Nukem Forever got released at one point. Unless you meant that once the games are no longer played by the masses. vaporware wouldn't be the term though. Wink
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Raven



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vaporware to me is a game - released or not - that spent so much time in development that gaming as a whole passed it by.

You guys did a great job with OMFBG, but it did spend a really long time in the proverbial oven.
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raptor
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So your definition of vaporware is anything that you consider to have failed due to any kind of release problems ? Be it failure to hold deadlines/release dates, to delivering unfinished product, and thus fall out of mainstream ?

That doesn't leave room for much. And isn't Vaporware.
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Xaronth



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's just saying that when a game enters vaporware status at one point in its life that it's usually a disappointment when it's released. I know where Raven is coming from but I need to disagree on the basis of Team Fortress 2. That disappeared for the longest time and it came out to be a pretty decent game overall.
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Raven



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nowhere in that did I imply that vapor directly correlates to game failure. I said "move on." IOW forget the game and look at other ventures. Dwelling on an in-dev game like that is only going to feed your own personal hype and set you up for disappointment in one form or another later. It's better to let it go and take the game at face value after it is released.
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raptor
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven wrote:
Nowhere in that did I imply that vapor directly correlates to game failure. I said "move on." IOW forget the game and look at other ventures. Dwelling on an in-dev game like that is only going to feed your own personal hype and set you up for disappointment in one form or another later. It's better to let it go and take the game at face value after it is released.


Believe me when I say that I am full aware of the problems of hype. This is also one of the reasons NWN1 was the last pc/crpg game I was looking forward to. :roll:

And even with GW2 I hold it at arms length as something that will come "eventually" and not "soon". Also they promise a whole lot, I have no idea if they can keep all of it, or even half. But even if they only keep half, they will have done something to try to change not only the MMO market, but also the CRPG market. Allot of their ideas are things I've been looking for for years already, in any any kind of crpg.

I'm definitively not judging the product until it is released and tried. But I still love to look over their ideas and desire to change up the standard to find new and innovative ways to do things. And these things I can enjoy before the game release.

PS: Just to be technical, GW2 has never turned vaporware, as they have yet to announce any release plans. It is still in development and has been the whole time. And the developers have stated that they refuse to release it half finished, it will be released as complete as they can get it, or they will just wait longer.
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Cyberman



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am definitely going to buy GW2.
I don' t know what I'm going to play (No Warrior/Ranger anymore Sad) and I don't even know IF I'm going to play much.
But I'll buy it anyway simply because I liked GW1, I want to see the progression beyond the holy trinity and - if they keep that - there will be no monthly fee.
The last part alone is worth the buy, IMO.

(Well, as long as they also stay away from micropayments. The road they entered with GW1 was fine - just sell decorative items for real money, so those who've got too much money can look pretty while the rest looks gritty but still has the same stats on their items.)

[edit]To add something negative - I'm not so sure how I feel about their insistance to remove the exclamation-mark type quests. I don't see anything bad about a quest being clearly marked as such, instead of being (too) similar to background noise.
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raptor
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyberman wrote:
I am definitely going to buy GW2.
I don' t know what I'm going to play (No Warrior/Ranger anymore :-() and I don't even know IF I'm going to play much.
But I'll buy it anyway simply because I liked GW1, I want to see the progression beyond the holy trinity and - if they keep that - there will be no monthly fee.
The last part alone is worth the buy, IMO.

(Well, as long as they also stay away from micropayments. The road they entered with GW1 was fine - just sell decorative items for real money, so those who've got too much money can look pretty while the rest looks gritty but still has the same stats on their items.)

[edit]To add something negative - I'm not so sure how I feel about their insistance to remove the exclamation-mark type quests. I don't see anything bad about a quest being clearly marked as such, instead of being (too) similar to background noise.


To answer in order:

Both warrior and ranger are in the game, personally I'll definitively be trying the ranger, since they have finally made a ranger I can like. They have done away with the "pure ranged attacker" style that every friggin game have pushed on the ranger, and made him more appropriately into a more all-rounder that can do a bit of everything in his own ways. Naturally I'll be playing him with melee weapons! I'm also looking very much forward to Guardian, looks close to Warrior/Monk combo in GW1.

To be honest, still no clear opinions on the removal of the trinity, it depends so much upon how they accomplish it. This is one spot I have some doubts about what they can really accomplish. They have clearly stated it will retain the same business model as GW1 with buy the game, no monthly fees. Also that any mini transactions should be cosmetic and stuff, not game effect altering.

Their removal of the exclamation mark quests is one of the greatest sells for me. They want to kill the "Hello, my grandmother was teaching the cat to suck eggs, but then the evil rats stole all the eggs. I'll give you 2 gold pieces and this shiny goose feather if you kill 20 rats as revenge." Go kill rats return.

I've hated those quests since Baldurs Gate 1, the game that really got me into rpg, and it had allot better such quests than the majority of other crpg games I've ever encountered. Most of the mmo variants have been so horribly boring, straight forward, little challenging. I don't know how I'll like the events, but at least they are different and creative. And from what I've seen and heard so far, I think they will do fine. Give players a choice, some different options, knowing that they will happen if you are there or not etc. Makes the world feel a bit more living.

Looking forward to it, perhaps most of all to see if they can keep all the things they have promised, and how they have implemented so many of the features.
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Cyberman



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raptor wrote:
Both warrior and ranger are in the game, personally I'll definitively be trying the ranger, since they have finally made a ranger I can like.

Yeah, but no more double-class. Sad Specialization is for insects.

The new ranger does look interesting - I might consider it, as I do like having a "pet" on my side. Melandru is my favorite god anyway.

Quote:
To be honest, still no clear opinions on the removal of the trinity, it depends so much upon how they accomplish it.

No doubt.
SWTOR goes an interesting route - they kept the trinity (of course, being a close copy of WoW), but the added companions can add at least a second third of it, so you don't need human players as much.
Of course, doesn't help THAT much, AI is never as good as humans, and you still see the oft repeated "Looking for Healer for X" in general chat.
Any class being able to supply that role might help - or everyone being self-sufficient.

Quote:
Their removal of the exclamation mark quests is one of the greatest sells for me. They want to kill the "Hello, my grandmother was teaching the cat to suck eggs, but then the evil rats stole all the eggs. I'll give you 2 gold pieces and this shiny goose feather if you kill 20 rats as revenge." Go kill rats return.

I see what you don't like with the quest, but I'm talking more literal - I mean the actual removal of visual clues that there is a quest going on.
I've read that in early tests players stood around wondering what to do while the whole town was burning.
Since nothing told them, they thought the burning town was just decoration, as it is so often in games - backgrounds are cheap, after all. Instead it was the quest...
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raptor
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*snip about warrior/ranger*

Regarding the no secondary class, that is because each class by itself is so much more inherently flexible and varied. That at some stage during development they figured that "hey, letting them secondary class this stuff is going to be 1: to complicated for us to balance. 2: to complicated for most players to keep track off. 3: not really gaining any benefit as most of the stuff is available in similar stuff from the primary class anyways."

So I wouldn't worry to much about the loss of secondary class.

Also, depending on what you're after, the warrior now got some ranged attacks that makes even the ranger look upon in envy. One of his longbow skills looked more like meteor strike bombardment than arrows.

*snip about unholy trio*

GW1 already had companions (Henchmen and heroes), it alleviated, but didn't really fix the problem. It also had the primary/secondary class system, which accomplished about the same.

As said, I have no clue how well this part will go, but if they can do as they promise and keep all characters switching between the roles in combat to fill in for each others. I'll love it. That idea sounds so fantastic it just can't be true.

*snip about event system*

And yes, I did hear that complaint. They did add an "Event Radar" to the game, so that you will be notified on the radar if an event happens nearby. I don't know anything more about it than that. But I guess that is a reasonable compromise. And games like Fable and the later generation MMO's with almost painted roadsigns to make certain a player can never miss the quest, or get lost etc. Just leaves me with a bad taste. Heck even GW1's auto-map noting was annoying, since I felt any monkey could do it.

Miss Baldur's Gate 1 like that, you had to look around and find the quests and how to solve them for yourself. Most of them where easy and straight forward, but some could be very hard to deal with. Just that grade of exploration, not only finding maps and areas, but also to find out what kind of quest you gotten your self mixed into.
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Cyberman



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Warning: Bitter rant ahead. At least partially...

Raptor wrote:
Regarding the no secondary class, that is because each class by itself is so much more inherently flexible and varied.

Yes, I've heard that exact argument many times.
Sorry to say, but I'm sick of it.
I guess it's true enough, but it just sounds so much like "Oh, you don't NEED the choice - don't you see you have everything you require already, stupid?".

Besides, I liked the split of being a follower of both Balthazar and Melandru.
With only one class, this isn't possible anymore.
Not to mention that you can't switch secondary class.

Quote:
Also, depending on what you're after, the warrior now got some ranged attacks that makes even the ranger look upon in envy. One of his longbow skills looked more like meteor strike bombardment than arrows.

Problem is, I don't know what I'm after. Back in GW1, I was W/R and happy about it. Now in SWTOR, I'm a Shadow still quite happy.
I'd like to have a companion (animal or otherwise), so that would point to Ranger. But I'm usually more comfortable with sturdy armor and a good sword in my hand, ideally plus a shield - which would mean Warrior.
OTOH, I tend towards technical and gadgetry - so there's new classes as well.
In GW1 I could have taken them as secondary classes and switch around, but now it's once for all...

Of course, I could solve that with lots and lots of alts. But that's not my playstyle.
(Truth be told, I do have one "secondary main" in SWTOR now. But that's because Republic and Empire are essentially different games with the same mechanic and layout.)

Quote:
And games like Fable and the later generation MMO's with almost painted roadsigns to make certain a player can never miss the quest, or get lost etc. Just leaves me with a bad taste. Heck even GW1's auto-map noting was annoying, since I felt any monkey could do it.

Hm. I don't know. Any extreme is bad.
I don't like having to search to find the quest itself or having to scour half the map to find where I need to go.
Nor do I want to write up a dozen clues on paper just to see what I should do. (Recently tried to play the game Neuromancer, after I read the novel. Soon stopped, mostly because of that.)

The challenge shouldn't be finding out where to go or what to do, but how to do it.
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Raven



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the whims of a random impulse and some, eh, moderate peer pressure, I pre ordered Guild Wars 2. I didn't get much out of GW1 honestly, so we'll see how it plays out.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pre-ordered as well. I don't know if you took a little time to participate in the beta weekend, but I found the gameplay greatly different from the original Guild Wars. I never did get Eye of the North, so possibly they already started making changes there, but if you were to ignore the style you wouldn't be able to immediately tell the games were from the same series.

On the other hand, I did find myself being easily distracted by "random event going on over here!" to the point where I played several hours and realized I didn't really have any long slogs of holding down a run key and taking a nap until I finally got where I was wanting to go. Also, the "last gasp" mechanic was interesting... I'll have to see how it plays out with further gameplay.

There are a few things that urked me, mainly for some of the jerky transitioning from combat to a main storyline cut scene. I began to second-guess if combat was almost over and it's better to keep engaging the kill, or if there was going to be a new wave and I should heal up and let others take aggro. Also, either I've become a lot smarter in my old(er) age or the "clever" riddles for the Raven quest (Norn race) were stupidly simple.
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