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Happy Raptor (Ranting Time)!
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raptor
Ancient One


Joined: 02 Sep 1999
Posts: 4520
Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: Happy Raptor (Ranting Time)! Reply with quote



MakeGho learned to block! Damn hardest Jaguar I've met in so many years I can't even remember any longer.

The DosBox ipx tunnel is still limited by OMF2097's bad netcode (Since it assumes you don't have friggin packet loss), but it is allot better that what I'm used to from my earlier years of online playing.
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Last edited by raptor on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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raptor
Ancient One


Joined: 02 Sep 1999
Posts: 4520
Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been sitting playing the Electra for two days now, trying to familiarize myself with its basic moves and how the bot plays. Realize that I have completely ignored this bot before, and never given it a second glance ever. Interesting bot to be sure, even if it still looks ugly as sin.

But I am clearly noticing its weaknesses, this is giving me a few good ideas for how to smack it up even better with the Nova later on as well. Fun to be so excited again. :)
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Last edited by raptor on Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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raptor
Ancient One


Joined: 02 Sep 1999
Posts: 4520
Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I've been *that* bored!

So I've been going through old posts searching for old tier listings of the OMF2097 bots. Just to have something to complain about, because I've been playing that dang Electra for a few days now, and I really wonder how the heck that thing gets listed as high as it gets.

From one of Robyrts post from back in 2005:

Quote:

Top Tier: Garg, Katana
Upper Tier: Chronos, Electra, Shredder
Middle Tier: Jag, Pyros, Nova
Low Tier: Flail, Thorn, Shadow


If I where to go back 3 days ago and say this, I'd say I agreed almost completely.

But 3 days did pass, and I've had a whole bucket-load of games with Electra, and a bunch of more multi-player games with the Nova. And I do not approve.

My experiences so far with Electra, even against CPU, is that if you deny it its air-game, it is put instantly on the defensive and can't approach. Naturally Gargoyle and Katana both can completely shut down Electras air game, that is what those two bots do. But other matchups that has really ruined my day are: Thorn, Pyros and Nova. Three big durable bots with powerful anti air moves. All (both) of Electras jumping attacks comes in at near horizontal angles, meaning that most good uppercut like attacks (Nova's BP is a prime example) if timed right is going to give you a fist-full of hurts in the stummy, on regular intervals. Thorn have its Speed-kick which is just perfect for this, walk a bit forward and speed-kick under the electra. Thorns DBP also works wonders. Pyros have the Jet Thruster attack, from my experience the AI can mess-up my air attacks 90% of the time with that alone. Nova naturally have two great heavies BP and DBP, both great reach, power, and aiming very upward, perfect for taking down airborne enemies. Nova is also the only bot that can reliably "trade blows". The more I play with him the more I realize that while most bots gets automatically "canceled" out when hit, the Nova seemingly still get his strikes in most of the time.

I really do hate to brag about the Nova since it is my favorite, and I always feels biased when talking positive about it. But after so many games I've played, I still struggle to find many bad match-ups with it. And no matter what playing-style the opponent takes I keep finding natural answers and solutions to them. He is by far what I would consider the most flexible and adaptable robot. To sum, the only bad match-ups I can find are Gargoyle and Katana. Some of the others get tricky until you learn to deal with some of their most common strategies, for example shredder is an unholy nightmare, until the moment you realize how you can completely shut down the flip kick. Then it turns into just another cute little kitten (with claws, the razor hands are still annoying). Also with most bots I tend to find one or two things difficult. After playing 10 games in a row with Katana online I realized I find it hard to break blocking with it. I generally struggle with combos for gargoyle. And Electra is completely set out of the offensive play if anyone takes the skies from him etc. I've yet to find any way to limit the Nova, it always adapts and finds a way. If I where to face a gargoyle I'd say the best choice is Katana or another gargoyle, but after that I'd pick Nova. Some good heavy counter attacks, and doesn't need combos to damage and hurt an opponent, And is one of hte few bots that can actually WALK toward another bot without being completely suicidal. Did also play 5 games in a row with Nova online where I stated that i would not jump, and won all 5. I dare anyone that wants to try to win a game against me without jumping :)

Todays "little" rant is over, you may all go back to your usual business and release a breath of relief.

Edit: W00t! Triple posting like it is 2002!
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dvereb



Joined: 21 Jul 2001
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Location: Erie, PA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like I should post just so you can post more without feeling bad about quadruple posting. Smile
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raptor
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Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dvereb wrote:
I feel like I should post just so you can post more without feeling bad about quadruple posting. :)


Damn I love you!

Edit: PS: If Mogusha ever found this thread, he would hunt me down with a commando spoon!
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raptor
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Joined: 02 Sep 1999
Posts: 4520
Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Due to lack of responces, I'll just rant some more:



One-Trick-Pony HAR ?

Several of the robots have one trick that is so good, or that their entire strategy is centered around, or just doesn't have anything else usefull, that it dominates the entire robots playstyle. This is what I refer to as "One-Trick-Pony HAR". The ones in question are: Katana, Shredder & Thorn. There are naturally some problems with a strategy buildt completely around a single trick, predictability and counters. Break the trick, and break the HAR. Okie let me delve into specific bots:



Shredder is the arctype of this, and the one HAR that really hammered this consept into me. Back before I became a internet-hermit on omf-forums etc, I used to play allot against my old rival (Nickname at the time: MKR), and he was very proficient in both Jaguar and Shredder. To cut the story as short as I can, I played against that shredder so much it hurt, and I was trashed so badly for a long time. Eventually I found a way to break his Flip-Kick with the Nova, by spacing myself just outside of his range, and almost outside my own, onceI saw he did a Flip-Kick I could do a slight move to position myself in the right range, and time a BP (fierce punch for those used to SF2). In 75% of the cases this would hit and knock the Shredder out of the air. After a few days of playing against him, I had this trick down. After that, he was mainly left to do JP (jump punch) for attacking. Just about every single combo and opener Shredder have revolves around his special attacks, and especially the Flip-Kick, if you break the Flip-Kick the bot is just a fast but extremely short ranged robot with no pokes and little priority.



Thorn is even worse, with so few usefull attacks that he is left with Speed-Kick and a few basic attacks (DFP, DBP & BP, I can't recal any other). So Speed-Kick becomes his primarly means of Defense, Anti-Air, Combo ender, Combo Starter (Air-Speed-Kick) & Attack Vector (Air-Speed-Kick). And half of that requires Hyper mode, just to get the airborne Speed-Kick option, and he also needs Rehit mode to get any combos at all save 2hit or DFP spam. This is restrictive to say the least. The main dissadvantage is naturally that your enemy always knows what is coming, and can plan for it accordingly. Block it, and the Thorn will be vulnerable to reprecursions. A matchup vs a Katana, where the Katana can predict and launch a Rising-Blade to every Speed-Kick means it is suicide to use Speed-Kick in 90% of the situations.



Katana is both a One-Trick-Ponu HAR and not. The robot itself have plenty of options, several usefull and good basic attacks, including slides and strong heavies that are usefull in combos, as well as two other situational but still suable specials. His problem is naturally that his one special attack Rising-Blade is so super amazing that you would be an idiot not tu use it for everything it is worth, and then some. It is the perfect counter to everything except for a Block. So why would you ever use anything else ? A good player with a Katana will abuse any oppertunity to punish the other player with Rising-Blade, this includes any time the opponent jumps toward you, misses a beat in a close combat and gives an opening, air-to-air combats, Combo finishers, and in any given situation where you feel uncertain or nervous you automatically throw out a Rising-Blade just to be certain. It is near risk free, invulnerable through almost entire animation, will get you through any kind of attack, missle, etc. So why is it bad ? Predictability and Impulse reactivity. There are no moves that can stop or deal with a Rising-Blade, so why bother ? all you need to do is Block it, and hit back. And if there is one thing that is not difficult, it is to bait a Katana player to give you a Rising-Blade. As I like to say when I play Nova vs Katana: "Bait, Block, Bash!"




How to lockdown a HAR ?

I have already mentioned how to lockdown the One-Trick-Pony HAR's above, but I wanted to add more to it later on when I got more time to write. So stay tuned to MORE RANTS! Mwuahaha!


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raptor
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Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gargoyle while not quite a One-Trick-Pony HAR shares some similarities. It's game is Air-Dominance, it wins for as long as it can dominate the air, refuse the opponent the air, and use the air to angle in all it's attacks. It has three great Special's for just this purpose, that interact and work together so well that you can directly combo the three special attacks in a single string (and it is a good combo to boot!). Without its specials, it would lose allot of power, not because it can't handle without them, but because it gives him almost twice as many options for an Air game. Do I consider this a weakness ? both yes and no. While the Gargoyle is dependent upon the air, so is many of the other HAR's, Electra for example loses his entire offensive game if you shut down its jumps, the gargoyle is no different there. But more so than any other bot, the Gargoyle is so focused on the Air-Game that if you *can* take that away from him, the bot have little left to offer. This is naturally very theoretically speaking, as how the heck are you going to take away the air game from a Gargoyle ?

Ironically our two "top" bots also make for some of the most boring matches, ever watched gargoyle vs gargoyle ? or Katana vs Katana ? Trust me that Katana vs Gargoyle is just as boring. If you want a fun match to watch, try Flail vs Flail, hilarity guaranteed.
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raptor
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Posts: 4520
Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, finally got Magnifico to give me a game! We did have some control problems because of the lag, my controls was a bit sluggish at certain times, nothing mayor but enough to get annoying. Magnifico had trouble getting blocking timing right and using QCB move specifically. I had to quit when my DosBox started bugging on me and didn't refresh the screen correctly, so I had to ALT+TAB to another window and back again to make it start refreshing screen again. this kicked in once when I was picking robot, and ended up with the wrong HAR o_0



He blocks well, and if not for the timing problem with the lag his defenses would have been nearly perfect. I had trouble enough getting through as it was. Learned several things about Electra, how to use several of its moves defensively, the wonders of Jump Punch, as well as how sneaky allot of those moves can be used, some of those moves have greater range than I thought it had...

I used Nova, Gargoyle, Katana and once with Flail because I missed the buttons >_< Come to think of it, I believe I just ran the three bots best able to stop the Electra, so my Apologies for that Mags! I'll make it up next time and play some more variety.




General tips about Multi-Player in OMF2097:

This is the one thing that never cease to amaze me. Every time I play someone in multi-player that haven't done so before I see the same things happen over and over again, so I thought I'd point out a few of them here, but also a few things specific for the online play and relating to the lag involved.

* This is not Tournament Play. Very important to get this right away, most people are so used to playing only tournament mode that they don't even realize that multi-player uses the 2-player mode. That means that you don't get any of the upgrades or enhancements from tournament mode. You pick a pilot and play with an entirely vanilla HAR. And 90% of the combos you're used to in Tournament Mode doesn't work here.

* This is not the AI, it won't fall for Jump Kick over and over and over again, in-fact they occasionally learn stuff. Get used to the idea that your opponent will not only be able to use good combos against you, block several attacks, and even use intelligent counters. Just repeating the same "Pattern" over and over is going to get you trounced.

* Blocking, your best friend ever. I can't emphasis this enough, blocking saves your bacon, protect your bacon, learn to block.

* Slow-Motion, even the ordinary multi-player with networking or serial link is at the fastest similar to the slowest speed in single-player. And Online games tend to be even slower. It has gotten allot better over the years, and the last couple of them, when using DosBox with it's buildt in IPX-Tunnel, it has generally played close enough to normal multi-player speed that it is acceptable. But it is still slower than you are used to, this affects several things that you should be aware off: You will have more time to see each move before it happens so don't be surprised if an enemy can perfectly block or counter some of your fast moves.

* Controls, because of the Slow-Motion of online play, the controls are also affected by the Slow-Motion. Get used to doing the key-presses slower than you're used to, this is especially true about all special attacks, the QCF/QCB are especially vulnerable to this. With a bit of patience and training you can get used to it, and it won't bother you overly much, I have about 90% accuracy on specials by now, which is probably better than my accuracy is in single player by now.




OMG! Quadruple posting, this is so 2001... *Runs and hides before Mogusha returns in wrath and fury!*
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raptor
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Joined: 02 Sep 1999
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Location: Sandefjord, Norway

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never really thought about it before, but when thinking about it, the Pilots have some very odd mixes of stats. I always believed that the differences was to give variety, but the more I look at it, the more I realize that there are so many overlapping, and some entirely useless setups that it sort of limits everything down to under half the options.


First of the poor setups: Milano, Shiro & Ibrahim. The problem with all of them, is that the cost for having one stat to the max, is that another stat is suffering to much. Both Shiro and Ibrahim with their Agility 1, are simply to slow, and thus worse off in all regards compared to Raven. Milano have the horror of Endurance 4, which just isn't enough against anything but the AI (And pray the AI doesn't get a lucky hit). Some slight readjustments of these stats might have made them more usable, but on the whole, a stat under 5 is crippling.


The Similar setups: Steffan + Cosette, Jean Paul + Angel, Shiro + Raven, Christian + Ibrahim, and to some extent Crystal + Milano. It will be much easier to read if I write them with some separation so:

Cossette & Steffan: A single point of difference, Cosette have one more Power but one less Agility. Does this really affect their play-styles at all ?
Angel & Jean Paul: Both are slightly defensive all-rounders, two points in power and endurance separates them. It makes Angel slightly more defensive.
Ibrahim & Shiro: Well yeah, power vs endurance. Their abysmal agility basically forces you to play to their remaining two stats, so their play-style tends to get identical.
Christian & Raven: Not as similar as the others, but the focus on Power+Endurance with a weaker Agility, I usually play them as a more defensive or aggressive variants of each-others.
Crystal & Milano: Perhaps the least similar, but the strong focus on Agility means both play about the same.


Now let us say that we're forced to pick a better one among the to similar ones, I have no basis t ground this on but let us just pick Angel and Cossette over Steffan and Jean Paul (They look cuter at least). This means that we efficiently have 5 different characters that are viable. Crystal (better than Milano by far), Christian (Better than Ibrahim), Cosette (better than steffan), Angel (better than Jean Paul), and Raven (better than Shiro). This is a good bit of forcing things, but it gets the point through. We have essentially 5 effective characters.


Yes, I know I can't change this. I still like the mental exercise.


Now for the second part, lacking play styles. After all several sort of "expected" arc types of stat setups are missing entirely, example the standard over aggressive high power+Agility but next to no Endurance (Xanthe in omfbg, was that right?). There are to many variants missing to really list them all, but I'm most surprised at the lack of two strong and one weak stat, with the exeption of the Raven setup. And the lack of some one slightly high with the other twos in moderate amounts similar to Cossette but with other stats. Some stats also seems present in high or low numbers, especially agility seems to be low in the lists, with only two characters having higher than 10, and only two more with 10 in agility.


All in all it could be interesting to take a spin around and try to fit some new stats to a few of the characters, to create as much variety as possible, create useful setups, and try as well as possible to stay within character. Let the speculations begin ?


And I think I've just done a sin so unforgivable that it might not even have been done back in 2000, and qintodruple posted.... I do believe that the proper punishment is the removal of fingers with a mixmaster, but you will have to catch me first!

Edit: Added some symbols to break up the wall of text to make it easier to read. I gotta remember to do this all the time. I've added some of these on my own forum, so I'm so used to having them available.
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dvereb



Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 409
Location: Erie, PA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
* This is not Tournament Play.

The very reason I never got into multiplayer. Now that I'm older and won't get upset that my jump kicks won't land a crazy combo 90% of the time, I wish I would have played more multiplayer.
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raptor
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tournament Mode

This is really the most iconic thing about all One Must Fall. It is the one thing above all others that people remember and associate with OMF. Robots, sure but more so because you could Upgrade those same robots. The more I look back at the game, the more I talk to others that have played it and loved it, the more I see the forums, and youtube comments etc. The conclusion is simple, OMF = Tournament Mode. Nothing new there, we all knew everyone tried the game and stuck with Tournament Mode. It is the main Bait, Hook and Line of the game.

And just as everyone else did, I spent many years of playing tournament mode before even caring about any other mode. I've even gotten several people that are not interested in fighting games at all to try and like OMF because of the Tournament Mode. And most of the people I meet that have played OMF2097 barely remember how the 1/2 player mode was at all, or that it was even there. Everyone loves Tournament Mode, that is why people play OMF.

History Lesion:

It wasn't until 1997 that I started actually having LAN's with a couple of friends from school that also liked the game, that we first time seriously tried multiplayer. Buddies MKR, Kane, Khan, Mur and myself used to play DooM, C&C1, RA1, OMF and a few other games every now and then. Back then MKR was the clearly best one of us in OMF, and it took me a long time to catch up with him, practicing almost every single day. At one point I just started realizing that 1player with ultimate difficulty was actually a much better way to train for playing against him than tournament mode was, and so I started playing a whole lot of 1player. Quickly came to the conclusion that I simply loved the multiplayer part better than the rest of the game, because of those great games we had. Eventually we where about tied in skill somewhere around 1998. Which was a great year for me with much multiplayer omf against MKR where we where just barely beating each-others just about every other time. Then came 1999 and he got hooked on StarCraft, and I lost my greatest Rival.

Okie, now I started realizing that I didn't enjoy tournament mode all that much anymore. I still played it, because that was how things was, you had to play it! And also I had experienced the internet by this time (end of 1997) and had learned of custom tournaments, so was a bit hooked to that. But essentially I was playing 1 player, and dreaming of playing multiplayer against MKR again. This was also the time I started playing against my cousin Korax and Quad a friend from school. And at this stage, I more and more realized that playing Tournament Mode just got dull, because of the little challenge, because I was stuck with Jaguar (this was when I started disliking it), because nothing I did or learned here was really relevant for multiplayer, and because the AI in tournament mode is even dumber than the 1player one. Also, I'd bought up a Nova and fully upgraded it a bunch of times already, there is an end to how fun it is to just collect more and more useless money.

So, I now hate Tournament Mode.

So how can one hate Tournament Mode ? After all Tournament Mode = OMF! Yes, and that is exactly why. When finding an online community to share my love for OMF with, one of the first things that became obvious was that everyone loved to argue that their favorite robot was the "best ever!", and almost every single one of them was speaking with no other experience than Tournament Mode, I think everyone can recognize comments such as: "Jaguar is the greatest! I've beaten every enemy in World Championship with perfect and destruction with my fully beefed up jaguar with all enhancements!". And just what does that prove ? Not a whole lot, other than the fact that Jaguar can indeed roflstomp the AI, just like everything else can in Tournament Mode. Is this enough reason to hate it ? Well it is for me, since I more and more ended up wanting to discuss the rest of the game, but no-one else ever wanted to. Then toss in a few comments about how I started seeing Tournament Mode players as Lazy, as preferring to depend on upgraded stats to win the day instead of learning to master the bot :p but I should probably avoid going into that quagmire...

Despite all this, I still rate the Tournament Mode as the most important feature of OMF, and one I would never have been without, if for no other reason than the game would never have reached such a cult classic status without it. Funny to think about the fact that the Tournament Mode just barely made it into the game. It was originally not supposed to be there at all, but it was an idea that had been playing around in Diversions Entertainment, and seemingly they tucked it into the game at the very last moment. Forgot what it was supposed to be called again, something about War Circuit.

Well, for anyone that have managed to hang along thus far, think for yourselves and think: "Would I have played OMF if not for the Tournament Mode?" would love to hear your answers.


And now, for the most controversial thing you are likely to ever experience! I'm now going to talk about OMF:BG!!!

I ended up chatting a bit with Justin ('Da man!) earlier today, and got to mention the Tournament Mode. And remembering back to the days of the active forum where everyone was clamoring for a Tournament Mode and Rob refusing to give in, and promising it would be added afterwards. It might be a bit bad to point to much fingers, especially with some advantage of hindsight, and an unhealthy dose of bias (I am a fan after all). But I think OMF:BG would have benefited so much more from a Tournament Mode than anything else. They should have just skipped the entire 1player story thing, and at most made it into a botmatch training for multiplayer. I think even dropping the multiplayer mode, in favor for focusing more on making a Tournament Mode would have been a better idea.



And yes, I do know a small bunch of you guys are going to ask me: "Why?", and that group would have been the lot that played and enjoyed the online game. Well congratulations, you guys where about the only guys that ever DID like this game. :(

OMF2097 was a cult classic, I still keep meeting people that goes "Oh yeah, I loved OMF2097!" and just about every single one of them talk fondly of Tournament Mode, never tried multiplayer, at most 2 player against a brother or something. And not a one of them have heard about OMF:BG. I guess you all see the pattern here. Now imagine what this bunch of people, who at least half probably bought OMF2097, would have done if OMF:BG had a Tournament Mode and no multiplayer ? OMF:BG a cult classic, imagine that.

So the proper order probably should have been: Release with Tournament Mode. Promise to add in a multiplayer mode afterwards.




Now there are several other advantages to this that most people might not think so much about. The focus on a Tournament Mode with no multiplayer means that the developers can focus more on creating the HARs more "powerful" and "unique", in short what most people consider fun. With crazy upgrades and stuff, everyone loves that Level 5 upgrade to jaguar leap etc. One of the problems with OMF:BG that became more and more apparent over the patches, was that the greater part of people got disinterested in the bots feeling slower and weaker with every patch. The balance was probably close enough in the end, but for all but the most dedicated online fans, the game just ended up feeling to dead to be fun. This is something a Tournament Mode could have fixed, upgrades! and no restrictions to this and that for balance, since entire Tournament Mode have never been about balance, but making everything broken. It is no genius people, most players like to feel superior, even if just over the AI. Instant gratification, and no need to actually train to beat-up everyone online.



Okie, I think I shall call it quits now. I'll need to read over entire thing another day and see what I missed, my head is in to much shambles to keep track of all of this right now.
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raptor
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tournament Mode, MK2

The one thing above all others that I hate about Tournament Mode, is that you got your pilot and bot, yeah they are now 25 in all stats, max in all upgrades and a couple of enhancements. Sure, so it just the same as every other pilot with the same bot. Great. Tournament mode upgrading went on the concept of min to max. The mode is actually not customizable at all! In-fact you have less real choices in your character setup than even 1 player! In 1 player mode yo at least had to pick your pilot and thus accept some strengths and weaknesses that came with it, and pick a HAR that was fitted to that play-style. In tournament mode you get to pick a picture and a name, the rest just goes from minimum to maximum with money. Typical case of given "false choices" as we often call it in cRPG's.

The other thing was the Tournaments being a ladder, and not a Tournament. Not an Elimination or Round-Robin system. Thus making them rather predictable and generally without consequences. Little replay value etc.



Now naturally you think, this *is* that old loon raptor we're talking about, so he probably have some *grand* idea on how to completely fix this, make it better, faster, harder, stronger right?

And right you are!



Pilots:

Creating a character pilot will be similar, but with one addition, after Portrait and Name, you will be allocating stats, you're given 30 points and can allocate them as you wish between Power, Agility and Endurance from a scale from 0-20. This should sound familiar to most, as this is the same system used for the pilots in 1/2 player.

Reasoning ? This will be the one and only way to alter stats, meaning stats matters, if you pick Power 9, Agility 20 and Endurance 1, you're going to be stuck with that Endurance 1 for the rest of the game. You will have to pick what strengths you want, and what weaknesses that comes with it. That means you get consequences for your play-style.



HARs:

Remove all current BOT upgrading, this includes Hyper Mode and all Enhancements. Each bot will be given X number of upgrade slots (6 upgrade slots looks right so far). Without any upgrades filled into the slots, the HAR will be considered a level 1 HAR of that type, say a Jaguar. There are 6 types of upgrades that can be upgraded to level 2 and then to level 3, naturally you need level 2 upgrade to be able to upgrade to level 3. The 6 types of upgrades are: Power, Agility, Endurance, Special-1, Special-2, Special-3.

The three basic stat upgrades essentially replace the old HAR upgrades Power (Arm/Leg power), Agility (Arm/Leg Speed), and Endurance (Armor/Stun Res). Let us say each level gives a +5 boost to this stat, so you could have level 3 Power for +10 to power.

The special upgrades are more interesting. Each HAR would have 3 different specials that could be upgraded, each upgrade generally make the special a bit better, just as we are familiar with the Enhancements. So a Jaguar's Concussion cannon would go from 1,2 to 3 shots depending on level 1/2/3 of the cannon. Jaguar Leap would go faster/stronger, go shadow version, and eventually at level 3 let you cancel into another attack like Jump Kick or even Overhead Throw as we can see it do with Enhancements.

The plan with this is to have level 1 be the standard familiar we know from 1 player, while level 2 generally are just more beefed up, faster and stronger bots and special in general, while the level 3 is specialization where you take on weaknesses by not upgrading certain aspects to save up for the level 3 stuff, and things like special moves start getting new options that change the way you can use them.

This way a Jaguar could use each of the 6 upgrade slots to upgrade everything to level 2, this would give him an all-rounder Jaguar with no real weaknesses. Or he could upgrade all the stat boosts to level 3, and thus get +10 to all three stats, but no better specials. Or he could upgrade all the specials to max and none of the stat boosts, thinking to win on finesse and skill with abusing all the special tricks instead. Or more likely some tweak of such, for example level 3 jaguar leap and agility, but sacrifice endurance and overhead throw specials to unupgraded, while keeping the level 2 upgrades for power and concussion cannon.

The entire idea here is to give useful upgrades that matters, that lets you choose what you want and not, and to adapt your own play-style to the game, and never feeling stuck with a bad setup. There would naturally be some less used combinations than others, that is natural in any such game.



Now for the tournaments themselves, I'd like some changes to those, nothing mayor, a simple toss up the competitor and play a Elimination system until you win or lose. This will end up letting you face different enemies every time you play, might not even meet the same "boss". And would make that horribly long World Championship be bearably shorter to play. Nothing much else to say really.



Now let us go into the deeper game here:

This system I've just been talking about have the potential to even be useful in multi-player, as long as the upgrade options gets balanced against each others etc. For as long as Tournament Mode is single-player only, we don't even need balance, just toss things out there and have fun. First of all the multi-player could be played in 3 different modes, Level 1, 2 and 3.

At Level 1 you essentially have what is now 1 player mode, save that you do play your own pilot with own stats, but unupgraded level 1 bots.

At level 2 you play with bots with up to level 2 equipment, thus you have everything upgraded. (Least interesting mode really, could be skipped).

And level 3 is full mode, where you can use any customization you want including level 3 parts. For as long as the options are balanced well enough this could actually work in multi-player. Which is hard for any system that lets you upgrade or customize your fighter.



And now just to go ape-poo, let us talk OMF:BG!

This system might even be "fairly" easy to implement into OMF:BG if we ever did get the mod tools. It doesn't require to much work compared to most such ideas. And might actually have made the game allot more fun.



And with that I will finally wrap up for tonight, and laugh myself to sleep at all the migraines I've inflicted into all of you (in about a weeks time when you read this!).
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Last edited by raptor on Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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takuban



Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 138
Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to read this thread (as it's about the only new one on here for a while), but there is a LOT of text! The dosbox thing sounds pretty cool. However, I have no idea when I would be available online for anything like that since most of my free time these days is taken up by trying to finish other projects (iPhone app for my main side project, DrinkingWeather.com ).

Back when I was working on the development for OMF:BG, I probably wouldn't have posted a drinking website, but that's because most of the people on the forum were minors. But everyone is all grown up now. hahahaha.

Anyway, I'm sure there are some other games that I would be abel to check out with the dosbox deal too. I'll be sure to post if I ever get that set up.
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PhreakyByNature



Joined: 27 Feb 2000
Posts: 4313
Location: Harrow, Middlesex, UK

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love the idea of DrinkingWeather Justin Smile

Raptor, I like the tourney changes - if anything a little different and more balanced, but indeed you're right, the original was the most beloved aspect of OMF: 2097 for many.

I think if you could win additional slots to level up for winning a tournament it would be good. As tournaments get harder, so must the fighter's stats be able to be expanded. No good offering max attributable slots in first tournament... Offer a few slots adjustable as necessary, then offer more as the fighter develops.
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takuban



Joined: 20 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! I think it will go along nicely with your trip. Smile

I'm currently working on an iPhone App for it to help out with the on-the-go queries.
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