OMF:BG Message Board

[Vuen]

Okay, I got sick of the whole reset / ground fragment argument; some people think it's fair, some people don't, some use it, some allow it but don't use it, some don't allow it at all... And not a single person has put up a shred of evidence to support either side. What I'd like here is to gather everyone's opinions, and see if we can get some real supportive evidence to say whether it's fair or whether it shouldn't be allowed. Let's try not to turn this into a flame war.

First I'd like to clarify what is meant by a fragment. A fragment occurs when two non-linking moves are performed in succession; basically, when you follow a certain move with another move that doesn't link, thus resetting the combo counter.

My opinion on the matter is that it should be allowed, and the reason I say this is because there is a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that DE knew such resets were possible and purposely allowed them to be possible.

First of all, they are possible. This is pretty self explanatory; they are in the game, so why not use them? Do they really break the game? People say it's more fun not using them. Why? This gives a whole new level of play; these resets are possible with all robots, and with all non-linking moves in the game; there are hundreds of possible combinations of resets possible. Wouldn't you find it much more fun to be on the frontier of a whole new level of play offering hundreds of new combos than just churning out your usual combos? Is it really more fun to ignore this whole new aspect of the game?

Secondly, they are evadable, blockable, counterable, and interruptible. Most robots' side punches are faster than a lot of the break moves, and many moves seem to get the same warmup-cancel benefits as counters get; in the short interval in which the fragment occurs, many moves can be used to interrupt and punish the fragment. This includes back-hitting moves such as force rk or pyros rk. Allow me to quote a few lines from Sirlin's Playing To Win article; I'm hoping this doesn't start a flame war, and you don't even remotely have to agree with the article, but read this:

[FlamingMonkey]

You haven't made a post in months that I haven't wholeheartedly agreed with. Congratulations.

[Zelig]

Yup, I agree with you, though not to the extend that I'm going to bother arguing with anyone who doesn't. I'll simply play as I would anyway.

[Robyrt]

Yep. In most situations where they're using a fragment, you could (gasp!) sidepunch or counter out of it, meaning it probably isn't broken. Plus, the insanely good risk/reward the attacker gets from using them helps counter the innate effectiveness of turtling in BG. The only problem I have is with the unescapeable ones, which are likely to outright kill you.

As support, I'll cite Marvel vs. Capcom 2. Cable has an easy 100% combo with no startup or recovery on the combo starter. A lot of people called that broken when it was first discovered, because it made the majority of characters useless - but Sirlin's axiom (above) held true, and Cable is now fighting for the #4 spot in character rankings because all the other good characters have tricks that make safe easy 100% combos seem like tick throwing in BG.

So instead of calling someone cheap for abusing a part of the combo system that DE obviously knew was there (as Vuen said, BG obviously detects a reset and triggers knockdown), learn to defend against it. The game will be better for it.

[TheUnknownFactor]

when theyre blockable, theyre not cheating (they might be cheap, but thats another story).

About "intentional", fragmenting was in a young stage in omf at the game's release, most people were still using jaguar, which was going through drastic stages at before and after the game release, the first major fragment found for jaguar was removed, its not as simple as saying: they exist, thus they were meant to exist.

Also about whether it would be more fun:
The difference is that when you fragment, you will need 1 unevadable combo, to kill(/stun -> kill) someone, rather then 2.
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All errors in spelling and grammer are entirely by design in order to enrage those who have nothing left to add to the discussion and therefore seek superiority through personal attacks.

[FlamingMonkey]

There's always next round. :p

[TheUnknownFactor]

that doesnt make it more fun.
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All errors in spelling and grammer are entirely by design in order to enrage those who have nothing left to add to the discussion and therefore seek superiority through personal attacks.

[FlamingMonkey]

Are you sure? Risk and reward both become radically hightened in such a mach.

[Sidious]

TUF, ever played a bot on rookie?
[filtered], if you're as good as you talk, ever played a bot on "Master"? Easy, right?
Now then, what if that bot suddenly threw in the fragmented combo, and follows it up correctly.
Wow. A challenge.
I'd prefer to lose in a good match than win in a poor one.
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Sidious/Soidanae
More singleplayer....

[Anonymous]

Cheers to more complicated combos. im glad the game is finally evolving

[Player]

I actually disagree with the whole fragmenting idea.

Fragments from the front are totally cool, they just add a little more depth to the game.

Combos from the back are rather rediculous. Try the following Mantis fragment...

LP, FRK, ALK, RK, FRP... RP, LP, RK, FRK, AFRP, AFLP...

It takes away more than half of an opponent's health and guarantees a stun as well (that combo is unevadable by the way). Once stunned, another combo will kill them.

To recap...
In my opinion, a series of moves, that in succession kill an opponent, without giving the said opponent the ability to escape is imbalanced.

[Socrates]

yeah coupled with stnu theyre pretty ridiculous, i think the whole stun system AND the air evade system is outta tune

[Vuen]

I seriously doubt that combo is unevadable; it's quite a bit slower than Jaguar's frk ! lp break which is evadable, blockable and counterable. Force's rk and Pyros's rk can probably interrupt it, as well as most sidepunches (Garg and Mantis for sure).

Besides, even if these combos do have insane risk/reward on back, that's just all the more reason not to show your back.

[TheUnknownFactor]

you can improvise on your arena, you cant improvise on 1 attack meaning you will die.

Yes that combo can not be blocked, the fRP knocks him of his feet (unblockable), the RP picks him back up into the second fragment, since RP is the first attack in that combo, LP wont be evadable, RK cant be evaded thanks to its range, fRK is the same, and the a.fRP a.fLP both have such in air range that theyre also as good as unevadable.

Anyone who has played player in his master mantis times would know how bad fragments can be.
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All errors in spelling and grammer are entirely by design in order to enrage those who have nothing left to add to the discussion and therefore seek superiority through personal attacks.

[Player]

For the record, for the most part, I'm talking about a 1v1 game with high level play involved.


I think the main problem here is...

Some of the people defending the fragment don't truely understand how powerful it can be, because they haven't explored fragmentation to the fullest extent.

Personally, I started exploring fragmentation before the Limited Test came out. I remember Fire and I would try to come up with rediculous combos. As a courtest to the opponent, I never use them, because once started, they are impossible to stop.

I'm hearing arguements about instant kill hazards. In order to be placed into one of these hazards, your opponent is going to need to use a move that can push you backwards.

Here are some examples:
Jag's Leap, Mantis' RK Slide, Katana's throw...

It's often hard to make these moves the first move of your combo.

When you try to push someone into the water with Mantis' RK slide, since that person is in a 3 hit combo, they can simply air evade to the side and avoid the hazard completely. Jag's Leap is not a move often used in a standard 1v1 game, and that's because it is a telegraphed move, and a good opponent has the ability to react before being hit. Have you ever tried walking up to someone and throwing them? Of course not, you're not a retard!

The only situations that I try to push people into instant kill hazards are at the end of combos, when they're already stunned, and you know what? I could have killed them without the hazard anyways.