OMF:BG Message Board

Discomb · Joined: 31 Jul 2003 Posts: 4262 Location: Beijing, China

I noticed something today while trying new pilots for Chronos. Particularly I am intrigued by Ice. She has about 60% speed, and lookie what I found.
Chronos has absolutely outstanding air evades (except frontal).
Any creative jump like rrj or rrjl is nothing when it comes to his air evades. j.left/right evades are absolutely amazing in that if the enemy attacks, he is trapped for a.RK, a.LP or a.fLK combo starters. Even counters will likely not have time to activate. This was tested on multiple bots in multiple HARs, and only fails sometimes with Katana's Rising Blade side attacks.
The back evade is also amazing because its aimed upward a little. Everyone, try this on the practice bot.
Spawn RP > (RK) Teleport Kick > a.back evade > bRP
He cant escape it. The timing is perfect, and all he can do is counter. Its a perfect way to get out of a posible side combo on a Teleport Kick as well. Its faster then the backflip, and while backflip > a.fLK is an odd link, j.back evade > fLK reaches a LOT further, and is far more unpredictable.
The forward air evade is aimed more downward however, so it has practically no use except in some combos with outstanding evadeability. Maybe its not that its aimed down, but that it has outstanding cooldown.

Anyway, my point is that Chronos is a heavy HAR, and has such awesome air evades. Look at Katana and Jaguar with comparably bad air evades. Whats up with that?
IMO Katana and Jaguar lack exactly this. They need longer ground AND air evades. Gargoyle has great air evades but sucky ground evades, which makes sence. Warlord has pretty good evades on both fronts. Why is that?

Anyway, just pointing out something that could help balance things well. Sort of a rant actually. But its balance forum.
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CloudFFVII · Joined: 23 Jul 2004 Posts: 360 Location: U.K.

ARGH!! what is it with people and 'beefing up' jaguar, Jaguar is at least if not more overpowered than mantis already.
1) Fast as fek with long pokey moves that while difficult are not impossible to link into long unevadeable ground combos.
2) Rolling ground evades that make him EVEN harder to hit and go a fair distance with most pilots
3) A Super that can be fragmented with ease (even I mananged to do it and i suck in jaguar)
4) He has such a small frame that a lot of combos will just 'drop' him, even from the front. I know my pyros ones do all the time.

Jagaur's side air evades are not so good but this is EASILY compensated by his ground evades being so uber.

Anyway, Chronos and Force have extremely pesky evades IMO they just behind me all the time especially with a small ammount of lag. If any har needs an improvement to evades its mantis however, at the moment his evades are pitiful compared to his mobility at other times so it doesnt make sense.(I admit however that mantis' slightly pitiful evades make sense due to his other good points, although I disagree that mantis is increadably overpowered.)
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mrsiezen · Joined: 21 Jul 2003 Posts: 1210 Location: Netherlands

Meh, I rarely use ground evades with jaggy in the vicinity of any other HAR (especially AI controlled ones) because I ALWAYS get hit during the evade...

Online, I just get hit even if I already evaded out of the other HAR's reach.

But, maybe I just suck at evading.
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Discomb · Joined: 31 Jul 2003 Posts: 4262 Location: Beijing, China

I must say Cloudeh, jag is not all that overpowered for one simple reason. He has precious few ways to get close to the oponent without just walking up, or jumping. Ive been playing jag lately, trying to fit him into where I see the balance stands, and fRP is the only useful thrusting move I found quite honestly.
Leap? And then what?
CC and stun the oponent for a sec to close some distance? Unlikely.
I must agree to that when he is next to you, its time to be swallowed whole (unless you're a turtly), but it takes so much skill for a jag to actually be able to start any of this. His evades, being his only ways to get around an oponent quickly to have a good start at his back, are absolutely pitiful. Same can be said for Katana.
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mrsiezen · Joined: 21 Jul 2003 Posts: 1210 Location: Netherlands

fLK rulez... you should try that one (works VERY well vs. AI btw...)

fLK, RK, leap... and then figure out if your opponent evades after that. If you know that, you can punish with Beserker Dash big time, untill they figure it out.
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CloudFFVII · Joined: 23 Jul 2004 Posts: 360 Location: U.K.

Discomb · Joined: 31 Jul 2003 Posts: 4262 Location: Beijing, China

I cant think of a jag combo (at least in my arsenal) that is unevadeable past 6 hits. Feel free to correct me of course.

And as for Chronos, I dont tele kick much anymore because of two reasons.
1) Easily forseen except in slightly laggy situations. Otherwise very punishable.
2) Too buggy in high lag.
My main cannon in closing the gap is j.fLK and dodging with j.r/l evade > a.LP
Tele Kicks are however useful in combination with the TACs.
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TheUnknownFactor · Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Evades

Xaronth · Joined: 17 May 2003 Posts: 6203 Location: Arizona, USA

man tuf is dishing out the smackdown
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Player · Joined: 07 Jan 2003 Posts: 1344 Location: Ontario, Canada

Here's how I would rank the HARs...

Gargoyle
Mantis
Warlord
Force
Jaguar
Chronos
Pyros
Katana

I'm not sure what made you think Jaguar was overpowered... but I have an idea.

Sometimes when people lose a game, they think that the loss was not thier fault. Sometimes they blame it on the game mechanics being unfair.

I kind of remember playing you (in a Jaguar). You use Katana, right? (Word of advice, don't use Katana! :p)

Anyways, I'm pretty up to date in Jag. I know most of the ins and outs of it, so I wouldn't be surprised if you thought that Jaguar was unbalanced for this reason.

If you want to see Mantis, Gargoyle, or heck, even Chronos be extremely "unbalanced", I can show you that too.

TheUnknownFactor · Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Evades

Note: Player has always hated pyros and never really cared trying it much (compared to other HARs) Smile

I do think he's underrating pyros, but i also think that pyros is currently overrated by many.
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Discomb · Joined: 31 Jul 2003 Posts: 4262 Location: Beijing, China

Wow TUF, thats quite a beating, though some of your points were off topic (for example when he talked about BD fragmenting easily, you went into non fragment supers. WE were talking about a situation where a super is used, and Mantis is unable to fragment like Jag does).

From what I see, Jaguar has the highest potential if mastered. Mordax tells me he thinks Chronos has that potential. Even player now ranks Chronos in the middle, above Pyros even. Not that it should be taken word for word as the truth from above, but it does give me some thoughts on how the HARs really stand in relation to eachother.
What I think makes Chronos so underpowered in most peoples eyes, is that he is slow and heavy, so he only gets one real chance for a long combo per fight. Most other HARs can do a few hits with not all too much damage, and come back later to finish it. Chronos has to do it all in one go, because god knows when he will have the chance for another long raid at someone. It is not hard closing distance and continuously doing damage, but it IS hard setting up a combo with a heavy start, and little probobility of an evade. All this due to the natural slowness of the moves, and thus lack of any surprise whatsoever. I personally think that Chronos is the slowest HAR, second maybe to Pyros, but without the flame range and linkabilities. Only an opinion though.

I still think Jag and Katana need real evades :p
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TheUnknownFactor · Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Evades

It's quite simple, chronos simply has 0 fast attacks that lead into good combos...
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Player · Joined: 07 Jan 2003 Posts: 1344 Location: Ontario, Canada

He has other means.

Range is his primary advantage... Freeze Crystals are his best bet.

And yeah, I do have a bias against Pyros. I'm most likely wrong in that area.

Anonymous · Guest

i dont have a bias against pyros, hes decent, but i always felt he was overrated towards the end (and underrated in the beginning), chronos underrated, and warlord underrated.

ytour list looks a lot like mine was